Brexshit Blunderland

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Vampire » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:33 am

jackos wrote:If the EU needed another reason not to extend the deadline the fact that you sent twats like this to sit in the European Parliament is definitely a big one.


I can fully understand, Jackos, why the EU would be tempted not to extend the deadline. It is, however, a temptation they should resist.

The EU has many flaws. It’s democratic and bureaucratic institutions are a bit of a muddle and largely remote from voters in member states. It’s economic machinery fails to coordinate monetary and fiscal policy.

But one thing it has always sought to do is to bring the peoples of Europe together. For that reason, it should not turn its back on sixteen million Europeans who voted Remain, and others who have been cruelly misled by duplicitous charlatan leaderships in both main Parties.

Like you, I have less sympathy for hardcore Brexiteers who may well get what they voted for. I also have little sympathy for those Labour Members who self indulgently voted for the lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn as Labour Leader despite knowing an EU referendum was imminent.

But it’s only a tiny minority who join political parties and elect these leaders. And it’s also a minority of voters who favour a hard Brexit. The EU should not give up on the innocent victims of this mess many of whom are still fighting for their future through marches, petitions, and other activities. At least remain open to them - they might yet prevail.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:21 am

Possibly some calm heads helpful - ALAW etc.


Personally, I can see both sides of it - and there's a lot of this "just get it over with" stuff around at the moment and putting it mildly it never seems well thought out. "I don't care that we are voting for a return to the stone age and for my daily butt-reaming for all eternity, enough is enough. Let's get it done."
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:20 am

Any time I hear or see a person saying, 'Let's get it over with, let's just get it done..' imo it signifies they have stopped thinking about it [if they ever started].
Yeah, let's get it done because you're bored with it... and see those poor cunts lose their jobs and those others go out of business, and still more not getting their medicines etc etc. Let's, whatever we do, not try and sort it out properly because you're bored.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:42 am

dirty leeds wrote:Any time I hear or see a person saying, 'Let's get it over with, let's just get it done..' imo it signifies they have stopped thinking about it [if they ever started].
Yeah, let's get it done because you're bored with it... and see those poor cunts lose their jobs and those others go out of business, and still more not getting their medicines etc etc. Let's, whatever we do, not try and sort it out properly because you're bored.

Fully sympathise with that, and from a UK perspective it's entirely correct.
I'm coming from a EU perspective, which almost nobody is trying to understand.
Eric said that it will have no effect on me.
I have to point out that it bloody well will.
For the past three and a half years I have been living in a kind of limbo, not knowing what my and my wife's status will be.
I have a couple of decisions to take about our future, and I can't take those decisions until the situation is clarified.
Unimportant little things like how much my pension will be worth and where we are going to live.
That's a purely personal situation.

Looking at it from a wider perspective, there is a new European parliament and Commission. Lots of decisions need to be taken, and as long as Brexit is up in the air those decisions are difficult to take.
This limbo is damaging.
We are looking at having people like Pritti Patel and Liz Truss sitting on ministerial meetings.
Fuck that.
A a small local anecdote. Santander airport and ferry port have recruited a dozen new border officials who will take up their posts next month.
Planning, innit.

I want to see the UK remain, or at least get a deal that lets us all move forward.
But it looks like that may not be possible.
In that case, it's preferable in some ways to put an end to it and let everyone move forward.
I know it's potentially very damaging to many people, but the uncertainty gets more dangerous (for us) the longer it goes on.

As an aside.
Why aren't you all actually doing something to force an outcome?
The environmentalists are shutting down airports, bridges, city centres, having massive protests ...
Johnson getting away with it, and people are moaning on social media and little else.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

Professor Weeto
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Professor Weeto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:29 am

Mustafaster wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:Any time I hear or see a person saying, 'Let's get it over with, let's just get it done..' imo it signifies they have stopped thinking about it [if they ever started].
Yeah, let's get it done because you're bored with it... and see those poor cunts lose their jobs and those others go out of business, and still more not getting their medicines etc etc. Let's, whatever we do, not try and sort it out properly because you're bored.

As an aside.
Why aren't you all actually doing something to force an outcome?
The environmentalists are shutting down airports, bridges, city centres, having massive protests ...
Johnson getting away with it, and people are moaning on social media and little else.


I'm not sure that's entirely fair. There have been quite a few organised protests, one of which was the largest in the UK since the Iraq war. There seems to be some kind of protest most weeks in the major cities.

The problem is that they are completely ignored, which is bound to demorilise those involved. The environmental cause feels like it's gathering momentum, and there is no defined goal as such, so it's easier to say "this might be working" even if nothing immediately happens.

The really rabid remainers don't make it any easier as they are almost as bad as the hardline brexiteers in terms of their single-mindedness. Not great people to be around, and very damaging to the cause, IMO. I'm talking about the people who would never accept, even grudgingly, a Norway-style arrangement.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:01 am

Mustafaster wrote:As an aside.
Why aren't you all actually doing something to force an outcome?
The environmentalists are shutting down airports, bridges, city centres, having massive protests ...
Johnson getting away with it, and people are moaning on social media and little else.


We've been on marches and rallies (well, I have). We've signed petitions in vast numbers. In my area huge numbers of constituents have made it explicitly clear to our MP, the retarded No Deal cunt, that she's toast come the next election day. She knows she is; she doesn't care.

You've seen how No Deal leavers are in total denial about any impact or that anyone has changed their mind. You've seen what the Leaver media comes up with. What do you want us to do? When do we start shooting?

XR might well have shut down roads etc, but have they actually achieved anything material other than raising awareness? Nope. So they're not actually succeeding either.

Professor Weeto wrote:The really rabid remainers don't make it any easier as they are almost as bad as the hardline brexiteers in terms of their single-mindedness. Not great people to be around, and very damaging to the cause, IMO. I'm talking about the people who would never accept, even grudgingly, a Norway-style arrangement.


Sorry, don't agree with the 'don't make it any easier' bit. If, at the outset, there had been a desire for constructive engagement things could have been different. If a Norway arrangement had been brought forward early on, it would have been accepted. But the sum total of all responses to any genuine attempts to raise concern or suggest compromise has been a) 'You lost, get over it' and b) 'Project Fear!' In this context is it any wonder that the Remainer position has hardened?

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:03 am

I mean, we all knew this, but it's nice to see Jukes et al laying the proofs out:

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Professor Weeto
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Professor Weeto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:21 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Sorry, don't agree with the 'don't make it any easier' bit. If, at the outset, there had been a desire for constructive engagement things could have been different. If a Norway arrangement had been brought forward early on, it would have been accepted. But the sum total of all responses to any genuine attempts to raise concern or suggest compromise has been a) 'You lost, get over it' and b) 'Project Fear!' In this context is it any wonder that the Remainer position has hardened?


I'm not going to get into it too much as there are clearly some very passionate folk on this thread and I wouldn't want to belittle anyone's feelings. I'm really not talking about the like of you, though, Eric (at least I don't think so) but those who would, for example, rather have no deal than some kind of soft brexit. The other side of the lunatic coin, I suppose. It's a small but significant group of people who have a very large presence on social media, and I genuinely think they've harmed their cause more than they've helped.

I do appreciate that the lines were drawn very early on, and comprimise was never really on the table. I'm not someone who's normally big on political comprimise but I think a "soft" brexit, considering the vote, would have been the least harmful thing for the country, at least in the short term. As you say, though, very few people were pushing that option in the immediate aftermath of the vote.

FWIW I hope we end up remaining, in case that wasn't clear. In addition to the obvious catastrophic effects of no deal on the country I also worry that whatever government ends up trying to rule through the calamity will end up doing something idiotic like starting a war to "bring the country together".

Professor Weeto
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Professor Weeto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:21 am

(And sorry, I guess I did get into it after all.)

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:34 am

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:29 pm

Somebody buy this lady a rakia.


You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:52 pm

So if anyone cares about the redacted part of that old Yellowhammer bollocks up there, it's in this thread.



TL;DR oops, we didn't think about fuel, two refineries close with 2,000 jobs lost, causing localised fuel crises, two weeks or so at a guess.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:02 pm

Two environment protesters arrested " preventatively", ahead of tomorrow's protests.
Hmmm.....
More pre-fascist moves.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:34 pm

New legal challenge underway from the Dream Team of Maugham and Cherry et al: trying to ensure that if Boris ignores the anti no deal bill, he's to be fined or imprisoned.

Story

Tarred and feathered not an option, sadly. Political correctness gone mad.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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jackos
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby jackos » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:17 pm

Vampire wrote:I can fully understand, Jackos, why the EU would be tempted not to extend the deadline. It is, however, a temptation they should resist.

The EU has many flaws. It’s democratic and bureaucratic institutions are a bit of a muddle and largely remote from voters in member states. It’s economic machinery fails to coordinate monetary and fiscal policy.

But one thing it has always sought to do is to bring the peoples of Europe together. For that reason, it should not turn its back on sixteen million Europeans who voted Remain, and others who have been cruelly misled by duplicitous charlatan leaderships in both main Parties.

Like you, I have less sympathy for hardcore Brexiteers who may well get what they voted for. I also have little sympathy for those Labour Members who self indulgently voted for the lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn as Labour Leader despite knowing an EU referendum was imminent.

But it’s only a tiny minority who join political parties and elect these leaders. And it’s also a minority of voters who favour a hard Brexit. The EU should not give up on the innocent victims of this mess many of whom are still fighting for their future through marches, petitions, and other activities. At least remain open to them - they might yet prevail.


In a democracy the best opportunity we get to voice our opinion, especially if we aren't a member of a political party, is at the ballot box, not, as many seem to think, on Twitter. I am certain that only a minority of voters support a hard exit, but do a majority of the rest really care enough to try prevent that outcome? Eric was at a demonstration to protest the shutdown of parliament in Brighton, my brother took time out from his holiday to join the demonstrations in Bristol, the turnout was tiny. In some cases 2-3k, in others a few hundred. For the EU election turnout was less than 37%, despite the electorate knowing that they had to get out and vote to send a signal to parliament and Nigel Farage. 33% voted for Farage and his policy of "we're off, fuck the consequences/foreigners", less than 20% for the pro-European LDEMs.

Ponte may not like it, we may not like it, but people in the UK have had a chance to make their voice heard and the folks who support a soft exit/remain failed to turn up. So now we are left hoping a coalition of Labour, the LDEMs and SNP can agree who should lead the country and negotiate a new deal before a second referendum. A deal Corbyn claims will be better but which he also admits will have [new?] red lines. After 3 years none of us has any idea what that actually means, other than it's a "deal for jobs". So what are we left with? 3 more years of uncertainty and of politicians staring at their own navels?

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Blackwhite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby Blackwhite » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:01 pm

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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jackos
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby jackos » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:28 pm

Blackwhite wrote:A Wall Street trader writes in Forbes: Brexit is Dead, the markets are speaking, louder and louder.


The likeliest option just now seems to be a soft exit doesn't it? DUP are slowly starting to soften as they see opinion for an Irish Union grow, Johnson wants to save face and his job, Corbyn wants a soft exit and an election, a majority of parliament seem to be leaning towards getting the job done.

Wouldn't be surprised to see minor tweaks to the back-stop and Johnson's (May's with a lick of paint) deal being passed before the end of October.

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the flying pig
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby the flying pig » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:59 pm

jackos wrote:...The likeliest option just now seems to be a soft exit doesn't it?...


It’s what should always have happened, though of course it’s so difficult to get there.

The Brexit vote was ghastly in so many ways. The ones that get the most attention are, y’know, flouted spending rules; the lie-filled campaign; the narrow margin & heavy reliance on the grey vote. But these are far less troubling to me than the combination of : (1) main reason people at the time (e.g. see Lord Ashcroft poll) gave for voting for it – a more or less meaningless ‘sovereignty’, based mostly on ignorance [with typically cases abysmal ignorance about the extent of EU influence in UK lawmaking]; + (2) the sources of information people used to reach these views, i.e. the Daily Mail, Dom Cummins’ Facebook blitz, etc.

Even the softest of soft planned Brexits (Norway/permanent customs union, etc) would have given the UK ‘freedom’ from CJEU, CAP, fisheries policy, etc. But it’s more or less impossible to say how far any of this would go towards assuaging people’s worries about sovereignty given that what really fuelled the sovereignty concerns was propaganda from the above sources, and that said propaganda likely won’t ever go away, most halfway sensible forms of Brexit being seemingly too soft for its paymasters.

This would have been far cleaner if say immigration on its own had been enough to get the leave vote to 51% - since most of the relatively hard forms of Brexit would put an end to FoM then it would be a genuine solution to a genuine issue and a vote that, though disappointing, would have provided a mandate that was relatively easy to respect & implement – we should just have gone with the least economically damaging option that ended FoM.

Intractable, really.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 pm


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eric olthwaite
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Re: Brexshit Blunderland

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:46 pm

the flying pig wrote:Intractable, really.


Yeah, what are the options?

1. No Deal. Minimum ten years of catastrophic economic damage, probably worsened by diving headlong into ill-considered / desperate trade deals with competitors.

2. Deal, of some sort. Five years of moderate damage whilst revised arrangements are sorted out, with little apparent benefit.

3. Revoke. No economic damage but huge systemic political harm leading to God knows what.

It occurs to me that the government which immediately follows delivery of Brexit (ie an election straight after the end date could change the govt) is on a kamikaze mission; virtually impossible that they could succeed, whatever they do.

We’re driving off a cliff; we just haven’t decided how high the cliff is.


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