YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

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Devi
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:02 pm

I need a tissue.
I like it. What is it?

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Quiffy
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Quiffy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:51 pm

being as it's wednesday and the surge of foolish optimism that builds towards saturday hasn't yet begun, i've started to consider the worst case scenario - brentford, or some other fuckers, eat our 6 point gap like pac man, we enter the play offs, the inevitable happens and the great man walks as he has 'failed' our club.

we wave goodbye to kalvin, ben white and jack harrison, not sure who else would be poached, klich probably. and father time catches up with pablo. what next?

we won't be able to spend big, but this isn't doomsday. we have a few ready made replacements. they may not be quite up there yet, due to lack of experience but i'm pretty sure under carlos corberan, or anyone other than sam allardyce or neil warnock, we could achieve the glorious heights of, at least, midtable like we're good at.

kalvin - mcCalmont
white - struijk (ball playing CB)
harrison - stevens or mckinstry
klich - bogusz or shack
pablo - tyler roberts, shack or bogusz.

so yeah, we could do with going up this year, it'd be knicker wetting to see bielsa in the premier league, but another year of the championship? it's not the end of the fucking world.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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Phil LUFC
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Phil LUFC » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:12 pm

I imagine we'd be looking at some significant changes if it comes to it, including a number of new players in. I can't see Radz going down what is effectively the Barnsley route of naming such a young squad every week.

Pablo is contracted for next season, his role will be ever diminishing from now but if its mid table he'd still be able to hack that for 2/3 of the season. We're committed to buying Costa, would we get enough for KP to enable us to activate options on Harrison and/or Meslier? I'd be very keen to make the effort for the latter and find a way to fuck Kiko off given his wages. Cooper presumably stays, Ayling & Dallas too - not going to get offered enough for them really. Klich is retainable but guess there could be offers.

Fuck knows really, not sure I fancy another year with Prolific Pat up front alone but I'd hate for us to ditch the style and culture built by Bielsa.

I''m not ready to really think about this option yet.

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metalsmurf
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby metalsmurf » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 pm

Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.

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Devi
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:16 am

If Bielsa goes, his system will go with him.

And that will be a greater shame than the loss of any player.
I like it. What is it?

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Bobbycollins
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Bobbycollins » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:09 am

Quiffy wrote:being as it's wednesday and the surge of foolish optimism that builds towards saturday hasn't yet begun, i've started to consider the worst case scenario - brentford, or some other fuckers, eat our 6 point gap like pac man, we enter the play offs, the inevitable happens and the great man walks as he has 'failed' our club.

we wave goodbye to kalvin, ben white and jack harrison, not sure who else would be poached, klich probably. and father time catches up with pablo. what next?


Brentford have been on a good run recently but they've still lost 1 in 3 of their league games so far this season. In a spirit of foolish optimism I'm hoping Huddersfield will turn up against them this week and their following game against Forest might be tricky.

I agree with Phil that an upgrade on Bamford would be required - if he can't convert from the numerous chances created by the current side, I'm not sure he would have a better return if we had a younger, less experienced lineup creating the openings.

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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby alienbumnote » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:04 pm

From todays press conference..... re: Transfers?

Marcelo Bielsa wrote:
What I cannot do is adapt to what happened in the last day. After the match of Arsenal Leeds was a Premier League team and after the Wednesday match we won one of the last six matches. None and both things are true. We are not one team of the Premier League and even if we won one match of the last six, that shows the reality of the team. After we had the best defence, it now looks like we’re weak in defence. We think Bamford is a great goalscorer when he scored 10 times or in some matches he doesn’t score we doubt on him. Of course we accept the supporters have some doubts in the team. The media and press have the same position. We try to analyse if the messages we receive are right or not. Everybody knows about our high point and our weak point. We analyse and try to correct, try to improve and adapt ourselves to the situation. About these new players in the team: I have done all the explanations, given all the information, the unfair treatment of Arsenal and Nketiah, the three of them to Leeds. When they choose Leeds, Leeds took an engagement to the Arsenal decision and Nketiah’s decision. They thought a lot about it. They choose us putting away other options they have. We did everything we said we were going to do. So, we have nothing to claim ourselves. The same with Clarke. In this moment we don’t have those two players and the club is going to do all is possible to resolve the situation. After the club have to resolve this always respecting the rules and economy of the club, not just the economy of the club, if not the limits every club has to bring players. We are aware we have to replace two players. Victor Orta is working very hard to resolve this. The president supports the needs of the team and if we can resolve it: better. If we cannot resolve it, it won’t be for a lack of effort or someone is not engaged. We cannot say that is going to happen the same as Dan James or we didn’t take advantage of Nketiah. None and both conclusions are true. What we have to do is describe how things are and accept supporters and the press judge us how they think we have to be judged. Every time the team doesn’t win there is something around the club, some feeling of doubt, lack of confidence and we understand this, but we have to know if we deserve this or not. Also it’s useful to analyse the argument supporters and press say what they claim on the team. Fair things I am forced to analyse, to analyse you need arguments. So when we listen or read the demanding about claims for what we are doing, we try to confirm if what people in general say is true or not. This is very important to say this clearly. To the supporters we are forced to give them, not to demand something. We have to listen to them and not answer them. We are grateful with the supporters, we listen and consider them. We respect what they say and after it’s the same with the press on another level. We analyse if what you say is real or not. If what you say is real, right, of course it’s a contribution for us. If it’s not right or true it’s a mistake, we consider it.

No, it never happened I had to say no to one player because Victor knows which players I am looking for and the characteristics of the team. There are a lot of things we consider in this window. How much is left, how long the player takes to adapt, if the player who comes is ready or not, the adaptation of how much one player costs the club, after the adaptation with team-mates because if nobody comes, after we are going to predict we don’t bring someone. If we bring one wrong player we will predict we took a bad decision. We are going to try to find the right player, but we are not going to bring one player who doesn’t fit with us just to say we brought someone in. Even if we lack one more attacker we are not going to bring someone in who doesn’t fit because a difficult decision to take because the player who comes is going to be an option to Bamford. The player who comes instead of Clarke will compete with all our wingers. This happens in every team. We are not in condition to say to one player you will come and play the rest of the season. We know perfectly one player not competing needs a process to compete again. Don’t forget everyone criticised Bamford until he got fit to compete. Supporters also value when one player is fit to compete. Do you think one great player who is doing well in his team is going to come into Leeds? Adams was one of them. Do you think Adams is playing regularly? Adams is not playing regularly, so if he comes we need to adapt. For this reason, I am disappointed with the Nketiah situation because we have 19 matches left, three months of competition. Also, have to interpret the kind of team we are. The matches we won is not because one player unbalanced the match. We win matches because we build attacks collectively. After, when you win attacks building collectively, you need adaptations and collective work. Co-ordination. If after Arsenal nobody said something because everyone was happy, but after Sheffield everyone worried again. We shouldn’t have to take those decisions with this situation. We don’t have to take the decision in those conditions because after, when we analyse, we analyse in a different context.


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eric olthwaite
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Ponte? PONTE!?
Member of a clique

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Ponte
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Ponte » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:48 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Ponte? PONTE!?

I give up
Conclave member

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Devi
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:11 am

I think we’re broadly agreed that Bielsa’s brand is good enough.

I’m beginning to seriously doubt if Corbaran’s coaching skills are though.

E2A And as for Orta’s ‘direction’... :roll:
I like it. What is it?

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welshwhite
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby welshwhite » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:24 am

Devi wrote:
E2A And as for Orta’s ‘direction’... :roll:


I've got a full tank of fuel in my car for when he decides to take, in the words of Ronan Keating's band 'One Direction'.
Phisher/Email fraudster.

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Bobbycollins
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Bobbycollins » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:28 am

Devi wrote:
I’m beginning to seriously doubt if Corbaran’s coaching skills are though.


Bit surprised about this. Which aspects of Corbaran's coaching do you doubt?

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Devi
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:19 pm

Bobbycollins wrote:
Devi wrote:
I’m beginning to seriously doubt if Corbaran’s coaching skills are though.


Bit surprised about this. Which aspects of Corbaran's coaching do you doubt?


He’s clearly able to coach Bielsaball

Whether he’s able to coach the ancient art of actually scoring, otoh...
I like it. What is it?

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Quiffy
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Quiffy » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:50 pm

Devi wrote:
Bobbycollins wrote:
Bit surprised about this. Which aspects of Corbaran's coaching do you doubt?


He’s clearly able to coach Bielsaball

Whether he’s able to coach the ancient art of actually scoring, otoh...

jesus, this is reactionary guesswork of the highest order, facebook quality. you obviously feel you need to blame someone because our team keeps missing chances.

never mind the fact that we're still creating these chances, never mind we're 2nd in the league, never mind he's been promoted by 'the best coach in the world', never mind he was here first and got the u23's playing exciting and successful football the season before bielsa arrived. never mind all that because we can't score enough goals recently, in spite of doing everything else right. the sense of entitlement here is breathtaking. :shake1:
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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Devi
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:31 pm

Hahahaha
Your reaction is somewhat ott to the question I posed. Im not in anyway desperate to blame anyone. We’re 2nd. We’re playing the best football I’ve seen us play in years (arguably ever). We very possibly might go up. Perhaps even AFC, given the time left in the season.
But it is a fact that we’re not scoring the (number of) goals we should be scoring.
I’m merely wondering why.
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Quiffy
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Quiffy » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:07 pm

Devi wrote:Hahahaha
Your reaction is somewhat ott to the question I posed. Im not in anyway desperate to blame anyone. We’re 2nd. We’re playing the best football I’ve seen us play in years (arguably ever). We very possibly might go up. Perhaps even AFC, given the time left in the season.
But it is a fact that we’re not scoring the (number of) goals we should be scoring.
I’m merely wondering why.

ach, maybe, i think it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back for me, after having spent 24 hours of reading reactionary bullshit i vented.

small changes are needed not big changes.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:17 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:I imagine we'd be looking at some significant changes if it comes to it, including a number of new players in. I can't see Radz going down what is effectively the Barnsley route of naming such a young squad every week.

Pablo is contracted for next season, his role will be ever diminishing from now but if its mid table he'd still be able to hack that for 2/3 of the season. We're committed to buying Costa, would we get enough for KP to enable us to activate options on Harrison and/or Meslier? I'd be very keen to make the effort for the latter and find a way to fuck Kiko off given his wages. Cooper presumably stays, Ayling & Dallas too - not going to get offered enough for them really. Klich is retainable but guess there could be offers.

Fuck knows really, not sure I fancy another year with Prolific Pat up front alone but I'd hate for us to ditch the style and culture built by Bielsa.

I''m not ready to really think about this option yet.


I agree on changes but where's the money coming from? The overall wage bill is more or less equal the turnover!

I think you guys don't understand the realities of lufc finances. There is no money to do anything.

We've committed 15m on Costa that we can't afford so we will have to buy then immediately sell and try and get as much as possible back.....won't be 15m.

Phillips goes for his release clause (10-15m).

All the players on improved, longer contracts....provably not good enough will stay as they won't get offered the money we are paying them elsewhere.

New manager will have to make do.

Crazy thing is, we will have paid Bielsa and his staff £13m over 2 years....not got promoted. Put the club back on its arse financially.....and some of the fans will still think he's the Messiah because we play tikki tacka.

Sean Dyches long ball merchants have just beaten the 2nd in the league. Wouldn't we rather be them than us...style be damned?

Results business, only thing that matters...

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Phil LUFC
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Phil LUFC » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:18 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:I imagine we'd be looking at some significant changes if it comes to it, including a number of new players in. I can't see Radz going down what is effectively the Barnsley route of naming such a young squad every week.

Pablo is contracted for next season, his role will be ever diminishing from now but if its mid table he'd still be able to hack that for 2/3 of the season. We're committed to buying Costa, would we get enough for KP to enable us to activate options on Harrison and/or Meslier? I'd be very keen to make the effort for the latter and find a way to fuck Kiko off given his wages. Cooper presumably stays, Ayling & Dallas too - not going to get offered enough for them really. Klich is retainable but guess there could be offers.

Fuck knows really, not sure I fancy another year with Prolific Pat up front alone but I'd hate for us to ditch the style and culture built by Bielsa.

I''m not ready to really think about this option yet.


I agree on changes but where's the money coming from? The overall wage bill is more or less equal the turnover!

I think you guys don't understand the realities of lufc finances. There is no money to do anything.

We've committed 15m on Costa that we can't afford so we will have to buy then immediately sell and try and get as much as possible back.....won't be 15m.

Phillips goes for his release clause (10-15m).

All the players on improved, longer contracts....provably not good enough will stay as they won't get offered the money we are paying them elsewhere.

New manager will have to make do.

Crazy thing is, we will have paid Bielsa and his staff £13m over 2 years....not got promoted. Put the club back on its arse financially.....and some of the fans will still think he's the Messiah because we play tikki tacka.

Sean Dyches long ball merchants have just beaten the 2nd in the league. Wouldn't we rather be them than us...style be damned?

Results business, only thing that matters...

Nobody really knows what the exact state is outside of the club, we've not yet seen the 18/19 accounts nevermind an insight into 19/20.

But... Some of us do have a pretty decent grasp of accounting methods in football.

Firstly, lets assume cash flow isn't a problem to simplify things a little (and avoid is needing to factor in exactly how payments for players are staged). Costa is a £15m commitment in the summer but he's signed a 4 year contract to 2024 so in the books that's £3.25m per season for 4 years.

In terms of other residual value for our existing squad...
Maybe half of the £7m for Bamford (over 2 years)? £1.5m for Kiko? Everyone else of note has been here longer but there may be some remaining amortisation due to new contracts and there's been investment in U23s.

I think we can reasonably assume the club is committed to about £5m-£8m in amortisation for existing players in the 20/21 season and a little less for 21/22. If we were to exercise options on Harrison and Meslier on 4 year deals we could double that (I assume we plan to if we get good offers for Phillips and don't commit to £15m in the summer for Adams/Bowen/someone else this month. Harrison would need to take a big pay cut though).

Selling KP for £25m (where's the evidence of this much lower release clause?) covers the amortisation and gives us £10m surplus in 20/21 to cover the wage overspend (I'm assuming the net profit in the summer is covering enough for this season). Our problem is/will be the commitments on amortisation in 21/22 if we don't find other saleable assets - Costa would be an option at that point but he's going to have to deliver more to be worth £15m.

What I'm basically saying is: Get the reported figures for KP and next season might not be a complete mess. We're about as well run as is possible in this division for any side wanting to be competitive but we should still anticipate a summer of net profits to ensure it doesn't become shit out bust. It's probably a case of "playoff hopefuls" and reliance on youth/existing fringe players. If the offers for KP don't come or are much lower, we've got a problem.

Mr Reality
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Mr Reality » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:38 pm

Nice summary.

But we are going up this year.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:24 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:Nobody really knows what the exact state is outside of the club, we've not yet seen the 18/19 accounts nevermind an insight into 19/20.

But... Some of us do have a pretty decent grasp of accounting methods in football.

Firstly, lets assume cash flow isn't a problem to simplify things a little (and avoid is needing to factor in exactly how payments for players are staged). Costa is a £15m commitment in the summer but he's signed a 4 year contract to 2024 so in the books that's £3.25m per season for 4 years.

In terms of other residual value for our existing squad...
Maybe half of the £7m for Bamford (over 2 years)? £1.5m for Kiko? Everyone else of note has been here longer but there may be some remaining amortisation due to new contracts and there's been investment in U23s.

I think we can reasonably assume the club is committed to about £5m-£8m in amortisation for existing players in the 20/21 season and a little less for 21/22. If we were to exercise options on Harrison and Meslier on 4 year deals we could double that (I assume we plan to if we get good offers for Phillips and don't commit to £15m in the summer for Adams/Bowen/someone else this month. Harrison would need to take a big pay cut though).

Selling KP for £25m (where's the evidence of this much lower release clause?) covers the amortisation and gives us £10m surplus in 20/21 to cover the wage overspend (I'm assuming the net profit in the summer is covering enough for this season). Our problem is/will be the commitments on amortisation in 21/22 if we don't find other saleable assets - Costa would be an option at that point but he's going to have to deliver more to be worth £15m.

What I'm basically saying is: Get the reported figures for KP and next season might not be a complete mess. We're about as well run as is possible in this division for any side wanting to be competitive but we should still anticipate a summer of net profits to ensure it doesn't become shit out bust. It's probably a case of "playoff hopefuls" and reliance on youth/existing fringe players. If the offers for KP don't come or are much lower, we've got a problem.


No, we don't know the exact state of the finances but there's enough info. out there to surmise the likely situation.

We lost 4m in last accounting period, which was really an operational loss of 15m as it included a direct cash injection of 11m. Remember under FFP the club can only receive £24m in cash (outside of the core activity) over a 3 year period.

Phil Hay has referred to losses in the £25m mark for the first full year of Bielsa on more than one occasion.

We've then sold 30m quids worth of players and brought in nobody permanent. Not a sign of a club in a good p&l situation.

Costa is 15m, and whilst we can spread his cost on paper over 4 years, when wolves come knocking on the door for the money they'll want it in one or maybe 2 chunks. That's cash the business doesn't have in it, we can see that by looking at wage bill figures and turnover. Radz is limited to what he can inject due to FFP so we literally can't afford it.

The problem with getting rid of the likes of Casilla and Bamford is who's going to pay them 30 to 35k a week? Prem club would but they aren't good enough. To shift them you'd need to give them away on a free or take a small fee.

Same applies to the likes of Klich, Dallas, Cooper etc. Long contract extensions that make no sense and make the players immoveable. Even though they've failed at this level.

The release clause for KP I heard from another agent. It made no sense for him to sign a new contract with a 25m+ release clause as he'd be taking millions out of his own pocket. Good PR and careful storytelling by the club. I've also been told that we never really got a 27m offer for him in the summer.

When we don't go up it's going to be dire stuff next year. Avoiding relegation the main priority.


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