The state of UK politics

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The Tin Man
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby The Tin Man » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:22 pm

Bob wrote:
The Tin Man wrote:
kennyb41 wrote:Bob's assertion that
"The Jews do not run AMRIKA but they exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population"

Well done another crass simplistic racist trope that doesn't even warrant a reply.


WOW.

Just because I point out that the Jewish community punch above their weight it makes it a racist trope?

That has been said about Britain, Should we riot or just take offence?


Before I give you my views on AS in the Labour party Vamps I need to address Bob's remarks above.

"The Jews do not run AMRIKA but they exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population"

As you know there is a perception amongst anti-semites that "the Jews" control the media and the world banking system. (promoted in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion , the recent mural by Kalen Ockerman for example or the endless personal attacks on George Soros etc etc ). This is known as economic antisemitism. There are of course many historical reasons for the association of Jews and capital born of discrimination e.g in the Middle Ages economic antisemitism took the form of a mass of legal restrictions imposed on Jews in terms of what they could do as a profession. Government and the church forced Jews into marginal occupations considered repugnant, such as tax- and rent-collecting and money-lending.

So you juxtaposing the phrase "the Jews" with " exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population" I would say is part of that racist trope . Your assertion that the Jewish community is "punching above it's weight" is actually meaningless and ignorant of the forces which have led to Jewish assimilation (the diaspora,the holocaust,the great tradition of education in parts of Jewish culture) Also of course "the Jews" are not a single homogeneous entity or a secret cabal with one shared goal.

Anyway is there a problem of AS in the Labour party? Yes unfortunately, although how wide spread it is I'm not sure because the situation has been handled and managed so appallingly. My own view is that just as many Zionists falsely equate anti-Zionism or general criticisms of Israel with antisemitism, others - including members of the Labour party conflate Israel (the state) with jewish people in general and cannot separate the two. This is one pathetic example from a Labour member

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labo ... n-1.483553

So though I'm sure Corbyn isn't a racist or anti-semite and he, for one, is able personally to make the distinction between Jewish people around the world and the state of Israel , he's not a manager either and has been totally ineffective when dealing with this crisis. I think his own political antipathy/criticism towards Israel has prevented him dealing with the crisis. So it's a kind of antisemitism through inertia.

So yeah I believe there is enough evidence to support the view that there is antisemitism amongst labour members I'm not sure how widespread it is because the Labour leadership has been inept in dealing with it.
For every step,the footprint was already there.

Phatphil65
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:46 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Phatphil65 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:32 pm

Just because I point out that the Jewish community punch above their weight it makes it a racist trope

Before I give you my views on AS in the Labour party Vamps I need to address Bob's remarks above.

"The Jews do not run AMRIKA but they exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population"

As you know there is a perception amongst anti-semites that "the Jews" control the media and the world banking system. (promoted in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion , the recent mural by Kalen Ockerman for example or the endless personal attacks on George Soros etc etc ). This is known as economic antisemitism. There are of course many historical reasons for the association of Jews and capital born of discrimination e.g in the Middle Ages economic antisemitism took the form of a mass of legal restrictions imposed on Jews in terms of what they could do as a profession. Government and the church forced Jews into marginal occupations considered repugnant, such as tax- and rent-collecting and money-lending.

So you juxtaposing the phrase "the Jews" with " exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population" I would say is part of that racist trope . Your assertion that the Jewish community is "punching above it's weight" is actually meaningless and ignorant of the forces which have led to Jewish assimilation (the diaspora,the holocaust,the great tradition of education in parts of Jewish culture) Also of course "the Jews" are not a single homogeneous entity or a secret cabal with one shared goal.

Anyway is there a problem of AS in the Labour party? Yes unfortunately, although how wide spread it is I'm not sure because the situation has been handled and managed so appallingly. My own view is that just as many Zionists falsely equate anti-Zionism or general criticisms of Israel with antisemitism, others - including members of the Labour party conflate Israel (the state) with jewish people in general and cannot separate the two. This is one pathetic example from a Labour member

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labo ... n-1.483553

So though I'm sure Corbyn isn't a racist or anti-semite and he, for one, is able personally to make the distinction between Jewish people around the world and the state of Israel , he's not a manager either and has been totally ineffective when dealing with this crisis. I think his own political antipathy/criticism towards Israel has prevented him dealing with the crisis. So it's a kind of antisemitism through inertia.

So yeah I believe there is enough evidence to support the view that there is antisemitism amongst labour members I'm not sure how widespread it is because the Labour leadership has been inept in dealing with it.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

This.

Good Post. I am anti-Zionist because I hate the hypocrisy of the Israeli government. What they are doing to the Palestinians in Gaza and the land grabs is disgraceful. But I am not anti-semetic. I treat every person I meet the same on the basis that everyone is good until they prove otherwise.

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:06 pm

The Tin Man wrote:
Vampire wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:Have to say though Tin Man, you've got to love the audacity of an actual right wing Thatcherite making a joke about perceived Labour AS......


Are you suggesting all the stories about anti Semitism in the Labour Party are merely “perception” rather than reality?

Given all the coverage this has had, interested to hear your reasoning and analysis?

Interested also in Tin Man’s views.



Before I give you my views on AS in the Labour party Vamps I need to address Bob's remarks (below)

Bob wrote:"The Jews do not run AMRIKA but they exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population"

Just because I point out that the Jewish community punch above their weight it makes it a racist trope?

That has been said about Britain, Should we riot or just take offence?


As you know there is a perception amongst anti-semites that "the Jews" control the media and the world banking system. (promoted in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion , the recent mural by Kalen Ockerman for example or the endless personal attacks on George Soros etc etc ). This is known as economic antisemitism. There are of course many historical reasons for the association of Jews and capital born of discrimination e.g in the Middle Ages economic antisemitism took the form of a mass of legal restrictions imposed on Jews in terms of what they could do as a profession. Government and the church forced Jews into marginal occupations considered repugnant, such as tax- and rent-collecting and money-lending.

So you juxtaposing the phrase "the Jews" with " exert a disproportionate influence for their size of population" I would say is part of that racist trope . Your assertion that the Jewish community is "punching above it's weight" is actually meaningless and ignorant of the forces which have led to Jewish assimilation (the diaspora,the holocaust,the great tradition of education in parts of Jewish culture) Also of course "the Jews" are not a single homogeneous entity or a secret cabal with one shared goal.

Anyway is there a problem of AS in the Labour party? Yes unfortunately, although how wide spread it is I'm not sure because the situation has been handled and managed so appallingly. My own view is that just as many Zionists falsely equate anti-Zionism or general criticisms of Israel with antisemitism, others - including members of the Labour party conflate Israel (the state) with jewish people in general and cannot separate the two. This is one pathetic example from a Labour member

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labo ... n-1.483553

So though I'm sure Corbyn isn't a racist or anti-semite and he, for one, is able personally to make the distinction between Jewish people around the world and the state of Israel , he's not a manager either and has been totally ineffective when dealing with this crisis. I think his own political antipathy/criticism towards Israel has prevented him dealing with the crisis. So it's a kind of antisemitism through inertia.

So yeah I believe there is enough evidence to support the view that there is antisemitism amongst labour members I'm not sure how widespread it is because the Labour leadership has been inept in dealing with it.


A good post, TM, and hope you don’t mind me fixing up the quotes for you. Given the sensitivity of the topic - I wouldn’t want it to appear as if you were quoting me when you were actually responding to me but quoting others!

Just like others on here I’m sure, I’m genuinely interested in your views on Labour anti Semitism given your own perspective (as a Jewish Labour member/supporter?). Without knowing all the ins and outs myself - your overall assessment appears sensible.

You say you’re “sure” Corbyn isn’t anti Semite - but you also mention the Ockerman mural.

When you look at that mural, it’s hard not to see der Sturmer type stereotypical images - so what was Corbyn thinking when he endorsed it? Did he just not notice? Really? Or not care because he thought the political points he was making were more important than calling out the anti Semitic depictions in the mural? Nor is this the only example that’s been dragged up from Corbyn’s past.

It’s difficult to know exactly what is in someone’s head and heart when they make such statements and maybe you are right about Corbyn - or maybe you are being charitable based on your prior perception of his character?

Similar with Bob. His statements on here do at first sight look like he’s going down the international Jewish conspiracy route - but being charitable (as with Corbyn) you could say he wouldn’t be wrong if he was merely highlighting (albeit in clumsy fashion) the influence of the Jewish lobby on US Middle Eastern Policy? Successive Presidents after Clinton have failed to reign in Israeli excesses and squandered opportunities to apply pressure on Netanyahu to pursue a genuine two state solution. I don’t think it is anti Semitic for him to say that (for the very reasons you have given) - if that is what he was saying.

That said, we’re all entitled to make our own judgements on whether to call out or not - and sometimes we do take account of our prior perceptions of character - so nothing wrong with that. A thought provoking and insightful post - we should hear more from you on this thread.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
Location: Arse end of nowhere

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:44 am

So no intention of negotiating a deal, and instead proposed Cummings fuckery to block any attempt at preventing them taking us out with no deal in place.



I predict a riot.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:05 am

Blackwhite wrote:I predict a riot.


Can only hope so.

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:56 am

Blackwhite wrote:So no intention of negotiating a deal, and instead proposed Cummings fuckery to block any attempt at preventing them taking us out with no deal in place.
.


Its brinkmanship, Boris and his rule Britannia crowd think they can call the EUs bluff, time will tell if they can..They have to convince 27 countries, not just the EU, so I expect they won't. The biggest problem is still that they have no solution to the backstop. As we know Europe already has plans in place to protect European interests in the event of a no deal.

https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm

You'd think that those plans would have matured a lot since December, so I doubt there will be a massive panic on 1st Nov. They will quickly agree something very similar/identical to May's deal that Boris and his mates in the media will sell as a massive win for the UK. Bugger knows what they do with the Irish border, one of the main reasons the UK is supposed to be leaving is that you want to regain control of your borders, how do you do that if there is an open border to the EU? I think Irish ports have already invested a lot to increase capacity, but it's still going to create massive problems for Ireland.

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Mustafaster
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:02 am
Location: PC Brigade House.

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:57 am

Boris and his merry band of pranksters have gone full retard, now.
They are hell-bent on leaving with no deal. They've made it a touchstone of their manhood. They can't be seen to back down, and any deal of any kind will be flagged up as appeasing the EU by the likes of JRM and Duncan Smith and the rest.

Parliament could stop it, but it will be very very difficult given the time frame.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity ...

Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
Location: Arse end of nowhere

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:54 am

Mustafaster wrote:
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity ...


Very apt. What rough beast indeed.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:20 pm

Shuddup ya feckin Class 1 Clown.

Anyway, do we ever get a small company view from Europe that's gonna be fcked on Nov 1st coz of all the Spooners that voted leave? Or are we left with just failing British stuff?

Shirley this must affect small business in Portugal, France, Italy Spain....or is it just us that's down the Swanee?

Hey! The world will still turn tha knows.
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:22 pm

What i meant to say was, will small businesss fail in Europe as wwell as all our gazillions of small business that are destined to fail?
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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welshwhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby welshwhite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:30 pm

kennyb41 wrote:Shuddup ya feckin Class 1 Clown.

Anyway, do we ever get a small company view from Europe that's gonna be fcked on Nov 1st coz of all the Spooners that voted leave? Or are we left with just failing British stuff?

Shirley this must affect small business in Portugal, France, Italy Spain....or is it just us that's down the Swanee?

Hey! The world will still turn tha knows.



Yes the world will still turn, K. The problem is now though, going to Tenerife for two weeks next week and the Pound against the Euro is right on it's arse.

Booked the holiday a good few months ago but will not travel to Europe again until we qualify to play there.

Must cash.

:basket:

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:47 pm

HOW THE FCK DYA THINK I FEEL ABOUT MY WORLDWIDE TRAVEL WW YA DUMB FCK!@@##$$%^&*()

:basket:

mUST DASH.
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:48 pm

fORGOT TO TAKE CAPS OFF.

:basket: :basket:

mUST DASH!
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:51 pm

SO ALL YOU CARE ABOOT REALLY IS YOUR UPCOMING HOLIDAY !!!....WHAT ABOOT MY FCKING GRANDKIDS GOING TO GREENLAND?
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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welshwhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby welshwhite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:52 pm

kennyb41 wrote:HOW THE FCK DYA THINK I FEEL ABOUT MY WORLDWIDE TRAVEL WW YA DUMB FCK!@@##$$%^&*()

:basket:

mUST DASH.


I'm going to Thailand early September, K. The Baht is worse than the Euro. 37.50

Hooray for Boris.

Going to make some Sausage and powdered potato now.

Must smash.

:basket:

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:55 pm

IM BACK IN BORIS'S UK ON 26 SEPT...,......JUST WANT IT ALL FCKING OVER WITH AND MY BELOVED POUND BACK UP TO 78BT
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:57 pm

I SAID HERE YONKS BACK ....YES!!!! WE'LL GET PUMMELLED FOR 2 YEARS.....BUT WILL SURVIVE!!....JUST FCKING GET ON WITH IT!!!
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:58 pm

TAKING CAPS LOCK OFf..... now.
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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kennyb41
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:10 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby kennyb41 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:01 pm

Hey Jehovah i can't even afford to knob a Katoy now coz of what you lot have done to my world.
Just coz you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't after you....Show me a good loser and i'll show you a fcking loser...I owe I owe it's off to work I go.

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welshwhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby welshwhite » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:02 pm

kennyb41 wrote:IM BACK IN BORIS'S UK ON 26 SEPT...,......JUST WANT IT ALL FCKING OVER WITH AND MY BELOVED POUND BACK UP TO 78BT


I'm glad you've left the caps on, K, my eyes are not what they used to be :thumbl:

Going to prepare dinner for tomorrow now, mashed potato, onion, and corned beef.

Must hash.

:basket:


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