The state of UK politics

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Quiffy
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Quiffy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:21 am

Bobbycollins wrote:When I studied history to 'O' level, it was all about Kings and Queens, or the Industrial and Agricultural revolutions. I grew up believing the British were blameless innovators.

I think it was jackos who made a good point the other day that got me thinking, that we 'celebrate' our history as we've never been invaded since 1066, where other countries 'learn' from it. :salute:
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:27 pm

Here as good as anywhere.

We had a free newspaper thing lobbed through our letterbox t'other day. Thought nothing of it and lobbed it to one side. I've just picked it up and skimmed The Epoch Times. Graphic presentation is wannabe WaPo / NYT but the content is a few pages of deranged Covid conspiracy anti-China tripe. As the link, it seems it's a pro-Trump neolib and Falun Gong backed thing. Things I'm idly curious about:

- Has anyone else had this?
- Who the fuck are they kidding, and what do they expect to gain from lobbing this shite through the letterboxes of random small country towns in deepest England?
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:07 pm

Mailed or hand delivered?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:34 pm

Blackwhite wrote:Mailed or hand delivered?


The latter, I suspect.
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the flying pig
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby the flying pig » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:54 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:Mailed or hand delivered?


The latter, I suspect.


grass roots, man.

i can easily imagine someone like former tsb stalwart 'lennon savior of england' burning through a fair bit of shoe leather to lug round a large batch of [dubiously stained] copies of this rag.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:06 pm

Falun Gong recruit like this. I've seen flyers on boards etc., though sadly they always seem to not be there after I've noticed them. Most odd, probably Occult activity.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

jackos
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:49 am

eric olthwaite wrote:
UK politics thread? Dunno.

Big Project arranged for Afua Hirsch to do a webinar / Q&A last week, following an unfortunate incident involving anonymous comments on an internal project comms thing. She's really very good at analysing ideas / attitudes in simple, crystalline terms.


If we are going to have a real discussion about politics wouldn't it be helpful if we, along with members of the intellectual elite like Hirsh, tried to understand why people voted for Brexit, didn't vote for Corbyn, did vote for Trump, do send their kids off to fight wars in distant places, do fear people from different cultures, are proud of "Their Royal Families" etc etc rather than belittling them? They might not have gone to Oxford, or have a PhD, but 99.9% of them have just as strong beliefs as we do, its on their ancestors backs that our countries wealth was built, its their kin who offered their lives in two word wars, and who slaved and died in mills, mines and factories to help build our welfare state.

Unless we understand why life long unionists voted for Trump, why unemployed people in the North of England did not vote for Corbyn or why 20% of Swedes including a big chunk of lifelong Social Democrats, voted for the Swedish Democrats, we will never make any progress.
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SimonB
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby SimonB » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:54 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Here as good as anywhere.

We had a free newspaper thing lobbed through our letterbox t'other day. Thought nothing of it and lobbed it to one side. I've just picked it up and skimmed The Epoch Times. Graphic presentation is wannabe WaPo / NYT but the content is a few pages of deranged Covid conspiracy anti-China tripe. As the link, it seems it's a pro-Trump neolib and Falun Gong backed thing. Things I'm idly curious about:

- Has anyone else had this?
- Who the fuck are they kidding, and what do they expect to gain from lobbing this shite through the letterboxes of random small country towns in deepest England?


We got one here in Peterborough, absolute shit
We had a meeting at work today and I was asked what steps I would take in the event of a fire. Apparently "fucking big ones" wasn't the right answer

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:06 am

jackos wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:
UK politics thread? Dunno.

Big Project arranged for Afua Hirsch to do a webinar / Q&A last week, following an unfortunate incident involving anonymous comments on an internal project comms thing. She's really very good at analysing ideas / attitudes in simple, crystalline terms.


If we are going to have a real discussion about politics wouldn't it be helpful if we, along with members of the intellectual elite like Hirsh, tried to understand why people voted for Brexit, didn't vote for Corbyn, did vote for Trump, do send their kids off to fight wars in distant places, do fear people from different cultures, are proud of "Their Royal Families" etc etc rather than belittling them? They might not have gone to Oxford, or have a PhD, but 99.9% of them have just as strong beliefs as we do, its on their ancestors backs that our countries wealth was built, its their kin who offered their lives in two word wars, and who slaved and died in mills, mines and factories to help build our welfare state.

Unless we understand why life long unionists voted for Trump, why unemployed people in the North of England did not vote for Corbyn or why 20% of Swedes
including a big chunk of lifelong Social Democrats, voted for the Swedish Democrats, we will never make any progesss.


Bits selectively highlighted here jackos to illustrate my problem with what you're saying:
- WTF is a 'real discussion about politics'? What defines it as real?
- The anti-intellectual thing is seriously problematic. It's no different to Gove's 'don't trust the experts'. Somehow, as a nation (and I think through our MSM and shit on Facebook, particularly) we've reached a point where listening to 'real people' - which in your terms is always the traditional working class - is the same as listening to people who have spent years studying something and thinking about it.
- I've never heard Hirsch belittling anyone - she just says 'here are the problems and here's how we got here'.

What's your solution - just basing politics on people's history and beliefs rather than attempting progress? How do we ever move forward? I appreciate that it's a vast, difficult minefield but if you can't say to the 'traditional working class', 'sorry, I think you're wrong' then we're utterly fucked. No matter what Brexiteers think, there won't ever be a future when things like manufacturing return to the North on a significant scale.

Ultimately, strong beliefs will never be a substitute for reality.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:12 pm

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

jackos
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:07 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Bits selectively highlighted here jackos to illustrate my problem with what you're saying:
- WTF is a 'real discussion about politics'? What defines it as real?
- The anti-intellectual thing is seriously problematic. It's no different to Gove's 'don't trust the experts'. Somehow, as a nation (and I think through our MSM and shit on Facebook, particularly) we've reached a point where listening to 'real people' - which in your terms is always the traditional working class - is the same as listening to people who have spent years studying something and thinking about it.
- I've never heard Hirsch belittling anyone - she just says 'here are the problems and here's how we got here'.

What's your solution - just basing politics on people's history and beliefs rather than attempting progress? How do we ever move forward? I appreciate that it's a vast, difficult minefield but if you can't say to the 'traditional working class', 'sorry, I think you're wrong' then we're utterly fucked. No matter what Brexiteers think, there won't ever be a future when things like manufacturing return to the North on a significant scale.

Ultimately, strong beliefs will never be a substitute for reality.



Reality is that Labour lost Scotland because they refused to listen to Scottish voters and took them for granted, without the Scottish seats Labour will.always struggle to win a GE. Last year they lost the North. Unless they can win back those traditional Labour strongholds we will never beat the Tories. Same in Sweden. Traditional social democrat voters are now voting for the populists.

The reality is 5 years of Tory rule.

We have to start discussing the questions people care about. We can all get on board with BLM, at least most sensible folks understand that we need to have an open and honest discussion about rasism. But we also have to listen to people who are scared by the changes they see in society. People also need hope, hope that they can improve their own lives, and hope that they can give their kids and grandkids a decent future. Hope they will be able to find work, and buy some of the extras they see advertised on TV each night. People who are content, who can feed their families and enjoy a few luxuries are much less likely to point their fingers at others.

Its a fact that some cities/parts of cities in Sweden do not feel like "Sweden" any more. Södertälje just south of Stockholm has a population of 97000, 55% of those 97000 have an immigrant background, most of those families arrived in the last 20 years from the middle east as refugees following wars started by the US and its allies. We can call Swedish people who are scared or upset by those demographic changes racists, stupid, or we can listen to their concerns and try to do something about them.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:24 pm

jackos wrote:We can call Swedish people who are scared or upset by those demographic changes racists, stupid, or we can listen to their concerns and try to do something about them.


Image

I seem to remember we tried this approach, but then some bloke ate a bacon sarnie wrong and it all went tits up.
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jackos
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:52 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:I seem to remember we tried this approach, but then some bloke ate a bacon sarnie wrong and it all went tits up.


What was that approach? Sweden is admittedly very different to the UK because mass immigration is relatively recent (last 40 years) phenomenon here, but I don't see a need to reduce immigration, quiet the opposite, it is a necessity if we are going to maintain our welfare systems. We do need a fairer European system to ensure every country shares the burden and costs when hundreds pf thousands refugees flee to Europe to escape wars. We need working control mechanisms for economic refugees, but you cannot control when people flee from wars or famine. We also have to ensure that countries like Poland and Hungary behave responsibility, they should only receive the benefits of EU membership if the follow the democratic principles of the Union.

I do see a need to invest a lot more time in explaining the benefits of immigration, but also helping reduce segregation and helping immigrants understand Swedish society and the culture better. We struggle especially with patriarchal traditions from some cultures that quiet simply do not work in Sweden. I'm certain you have different problems in the UK, colonialisms has left its own challenges, but it also means that there is, probably, less segregation in the UK.
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jackos
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:13 pm

PS I do think that leaving the Union could lead to an even more deregulated labour market in the UK which in turn will lead to even more tension as working class English people, of all colours, struggle to find work that pays a decent living wage. It'll be interesting to see how Johnson blames that on the EU.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm

He won't be here by then. Bozo famously leaves just before the police arrive.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:08 pm



:lol:
I like it. What is it?

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:56 pm

I did like his rebuttal to the Lawyer criticism...

[Johnson has] been found out. He either dodges the question or he gives dodgy answers. No more witnesses, I rest my case.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:12 pm

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Ontolly
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Ontolly » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm

The only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter was that his name wasn't Henry Porter.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:08 am

Fucking hell, this Jenrick Westferry bullshit. Thing is, for saving Desmond £45m, the Tories only managed to extract a £12k bung. The so-called party of economic responsibility can't even make a financial success of corruption. Some deal they'll get from Trump and the EU.
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