Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

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jackos
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby jackos » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:31 pm

Quiffy wrote:i disagree. they disagree. it narks me when i see a leeds player getting what i consider an unfairly hard time, so i stick up for him that's all.


I'm not giving him stick, I think he's been okay recently, I just think we need better. Of the current bunch I'd be happy to see Roberts, Costa and Alioski leave this summer, we have to improve year on year and that's where I'd start. Therefore I'd prefer to see a few of the kids given a chance in the last 5 games of this season. Not 90 min, but 20-30 min off the bench, I think they've earned that.
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dirty leeds
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:46 pm

jackos wrote:
Quiffy wrote:i disagree. they disagree. it narks me when i see a leeds player getting what i consider an unfairly hard time, so i stick up for him that's all.


I'm not giving him stick, I think he's been okay recently, I just think we need better. Of the current bunch I'd be happy to see Roberts, Costa and Alioski leave this summer, we have to improve year on year and that's where I'd start. Therefore I'd prefer to see a few of the kids given a chance in the last 5 games of this season. Not 90 min, but 20-30 min off the bench, I think they've earned that.


Yeah, what Jackos said. Agree with all three. It's not really about Tyler, just about improving our weakest players. Tyler happens to be one of 'em. Pablo has to go too - but he is, so it's not an issue.
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Quiffy
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Quiffy » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:06 pm

as i said on the other thread to musta, what sort of replacement would you go for? of our current squad he's best at filling in for patrick as a target man type number 9 and whilst we are playing in the current style we need someone to sub in to this role. they're not cheap to replace and as he can do a job there, as well as elsewhere, i'd keep him on for now.

we did try and play more balls into feet for rodrigo to run on to in the last half hour the other day. if we can continue to play to his strengths we may not need tyler as cover, but so far this season when rodrigo's played up top he's been booted the same balls as patrick and struggled to deal with them. tyler is better at this role imo.

don't disagree about costa or alioski, but for me the priority is getting a new pablo. if we invested heavily in this role it'll make a bigger difference to our fortunes.
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Tommy
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Tommy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:43 am

In my opinion Roberts is worth persisting with based on recent performances, age and versatility. Given that he's being used in broadly the same way as Rodrigo, I'd argue that he's made roughly the same impact over the course of the season (though both had COVID, injuries and limited opportunities). It's probably been said on here at some point but at the same age borderline everyone thought Kalvin was shite, despite playing at a lower level. Roberts has looked busy, involved and far from out of his depth in the last three matches - from which we took seven points and in his last match provided the key pass for both of our goals. The fact that he will likely always be in or around the Wales team means he'll garner more experience along the way too. I'd prefer to have another midfielder in the position Roberts/Rodrigo are being played and I'm hoping that Bielsa agrees but doesn't have the right player yet. Once we get him, Roberts then becomes useful as a relatively dependable deputy again at no further expense (which given that we may well have taken a bath on Rodrigo, is probably a good thing).

I also think that Raphinha is as close as you're going to get to a 'new Pablo' without spending insane money. I'd quite like to see him as a No 10 if it wasn't for the fact that we'd miss him on the wing - though Pablo's best performances going back two seasons were often on the wing so he is likely still the best replacement we're going to get in that sense. Costa basically fine as a backup based on performances this season (with Poveda and Summerville waiting in the wings so to speak) and I suspect it'll be harder to replace Alioski than we might think (in the sense that it requires someone who is very fit, seldom injured and can play in several positions) but we should definitely try to do so in the summer.

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the flying pig
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby the flying pig » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:06 am

i guess the key thing about roberts is his likely pay level - imo almost certainly under £10k a week, so we're talking a not-very-large fraction of what rodrigo's on.

he's ok. he can do a 5 or 6 out of 10 job in quite a few positions. his age and 'toolkit' are such that you can imagine this one day becoming 6 or 7 out of 10.

carl shutt isn't a bad comparator - in 1990/91 we got to 4th place in the old first division with shutty an automatic pick for almost the entire season. at the time there were probably about 50 or so better strikers than shutt dotted around the 20-odd other top flight squads but through his being consistent, 'putting in a shift', etc [and the midfield being so good] we as a team got away with it.

we certainly need to upgrade a good few positions in order to move anywhere close to [our objective, whatever that is? being about as good as say leicester or everton or whoever are now?] but given how cheap he is and his age etc tyler for me probably would be playing a decent sized role for at least the next season or so. our budget is stufft that weak links are inevitable, but as far as possible our weakest links should also be our cheapest links.

his summer 2022 contract expiry complicates all of the above. at such time as he stops being cheap, he imo stops being worth keeping. we'll have to see if and how contract negotiations play out.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:07 am

Tommy wrote:In my opinion Roberts is worth persisting with based on recent performances, age and versatility. Given that he's being used in broadly the same way as Rodrigo, I'd argue that he's made roughly the same impact over the course of the season (though both had COVID, injuries and limited opportunities). It's probably been said on here at some point but at the same age borderline everyone thought Kalvin was shite, despite playing at a lower level. Roberts has looked busy, involved and far from out of his depth in the last three matches - from which we took seven points and in his last match provided the key pass for both of our goals. The fact that he will likely always be in or around the Wales team means he'll garner more experience along the way too. I'd prefer to have another midfielder in the position Roberts/Rodrigo are being played and I'm hoping that Bielsa agrees but doesn't have the right player yet. Once we get him, Roberts then becomes useful as a relatively dependable deputy again at no further expense (which given that we may well have taken a bath on Rodrigo, is probably a good thing).

I also think that Raphinha is as close as you're going to get to a 'new Pablo' without spending insane money. I'd quite like to see him as a No 10 if it wasn't for the fact that we'd miss him on the wing - though Pablo's best performances going back two seasons were often on the wing so he is likely still the best replacement we're going to get in that sense. Costa basically fine as a backup based on performances this season (with Poveda and Summerville waiting in the wings so to speak) and I suspect it'll be harder to replace Alioski than we might think (in the sense that it requires someone who is very fit, seldom injured and can play in several positions) but we should definitely try to do so in the summer.


The problem with this post is that you're saying that all our players are basically OK and you're right, they are. We're going to finish tenth in the league plus or minus one place which is great, for a newly promoted team. But it all feels complacent. The next question is what we do to try to finish in a higher position next season. I suggest the following possibilities:

1. Experience fewer injuries to key players. To be honest, I don't think we've had a bad season for injuries and given the way we play I doubt there's realistic scope for improvement.
2. Make fewer mistakes through player improvement. How many of our players can, at this point, be coached to improve? Rodrigo maybe and Struijk going forward.
3. Buy better players. In which case question is who do we replace first?

I'm not up for statements like Costa basically fine as a backup based on performances this season. To do what - avoid relegation? Is that what we want?
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Ponte
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Ponte » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:14 am

Tommy wrote:It's probably been said on here at some point but at the same age borderline everyone thought Kalvin was shite, despite playing at a lower level.

The big difference here is that Kalvin was pretty shite until Bielsa arrived. Roberts has had a few years of Bielsa coaching now and still doesn't look top notch.

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the flying pig
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby the flying pig » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:21 am

Ponte wrote:
Tommy wrote:It's probably been said on here at some point but at the same age borderline everyone thought Kalvin was shite, despite playing at a lower level.

The big difference here is that Kalvin was pretty shite until Bielsa arrived. Roberts has had a few years of Bielsa coaching now and still doesn't look top notch.


that's fair, i think nearly all of KP's improvement was down to simple positional change rather than "coaching", he was putting in MoTM performances within weeks of moving to his new position, e.g. in autumn 2018, the improvement was almost instant. fanciful i know but i almost hope that we might keep bielsa 'forever' as a kind of consultant of some kind, watching hours of football for us from back in argentina, looking for players to convert in this way.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby dirty leeds » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:24 am

If we want to keep improving we have to replace our weaker players at every opportunity. Given our likely financial situation, this effectively means once a year, in summer.
We should be looking at raising the level of quality of every player until they are all as obviously good as Raphinha, Llorente, Koch, Phillips and the younger version of Pablo. We can't do that all at once, so we start with the 'worst' three. LB is the obvious place to start and we need probably two different types of midfielder. That means we'll have to 'risk' Rodrigo coming good after staying fit and finding his true role; 'risk' going with Bamford again as main striker and hope he's as good again next time; 'risk' that Harrison keeps on improving; 'risk' that Ayling isn't totally found out and/or Dallas can help us out there. And so on. If we do improve, then next time we should be looking at replacing another three.
We absolutely cannot just accept Roberts, Costa and the like as adequate first-choice first teamers. At best we stagnate; at worst, we go down.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:37 pm

dirty leeds wrote:If we want to keep improving we have to replace our weaker players at every opportunity. Given our likely financial situation, this effectively means once a year, in summer.
We should be looking at raising the level of quality of every player until they are all as obviously good as Raphinha, Llorente, Koch, Phillips and the younger version of Pablo. We can't do that all at once, so we start with the 'worst' three. LB is the obvious place to start and we need probably two different types of midfielder. That means we'll have to 'risk' Rodrigo coming good after staying fit and finding his true role; 'risk' going with Bamford again as main striker and hope he's as good again next time; 'risk' that Harrison keeps on improving; 'risk' that Ayling isn't totally found out and/or Dallas can help us out there. And so on. If we do improve, then next time we should be looking at replacing another three.
We absolutely cannot just accept Roberts, Costa and the like as adequate first-choice first teamers. At best we stagnate; at worst, we go down.


Wouldn't argue with the bones of that. If money's tight (nb I have no real idea of what our summer budget might be) I wonder whether I'd be happier seeing a new Klich-ish type as the priority, allowing Stuey D to revert to LB. Not ideal but more reliable for more games than Alioski.
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Tommy
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Tommy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:22 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:I'm not up for statements like Costa basically fine as a backup based on performances this season. To do what - avoid relegation? Is that what we want?

Yes, we definitely want to avoid relegation every season.

Almost without exception players have improved in their second season under Bielsa and if that happens with the signings we made last summer, presumably we'll already be that much better without even taking into consideration the players we will definitely sign this summer. Thus, having 22 year old Tyler Roberts as maybe 3rd-6th choice in four positions does not indicate a paucity of ambition. He's always been fairly reliable but the unexpected opportunities he's had in the second half of the season only emphasise that he's exactly the sort of player that is handy to have around - ie, doesn't mind spending a good chunk, possibly all of the season not playing but also being basically fine if the sky is falling and you have to throw him in. Likewise, Costa's return has actually been decent for the number of minutes he's played (I recall he's on something like three goals and three assists, which puts him above some wingers in the same league who have played four times as many matches) and I think if either Harrison or Raphinha were injured, he'd actually be able to fill in tolerably well at the very minimum, without it costing us more money we could be using elsewhere. It's up to the likes of Gelhardt, Greenwood, Poveda and Summerville to provide a credible alternative in the coming seasons, assuming they stick around and/or develop.

If we can improve on any of our players and the deal is right, obviously we'll do it and the best players will presumably be self-evident over the course of the season. I reckon that the combination of factors that has seen us marginally better the base-level expectation for three sequential seasons will mean that we will improve even if the core of our team is still recognisably the same players that we had in the Championship and this current season. Realistically, my goal for the second season back would have been a midtable finish and it looks as though we're going to be ahead of schedule.

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Quiffy
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Quiffy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:10 pm

Tommy wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm not up for statements like Costa basically fine as a backup based on performances this season. To do what - avoid relegation? Is that what we want?

Yes, we definitely want to avoid relegation every season.

Almost without exception players have improved in their second season under Bielsa and if that happens with the signings we made last summer, presumably we'll already be that much better without even taking into consideration the players we will definitely sign this summer. Thus, having 22 year old Tyler Roberts as maybe 3rd-6th choice in four positions does not indicate a paucity of ambition. He's always been fairly reliable but the unexpected opportunities he's had in the second half of the season only emphasise that he's exactly the sort of player that is handy to have around - ie, doesn't mind spending a good chunk, possibly all of the season not playing but also being basically fine if the sky is falling and you have to throw him in. Likewise, Costa's return has actually been decent for the number of minutes he's played (I recall he's on something like three goals and three assists, which puts him above some wingers in the same league who have played four times as many matches) and I think if either Harrison or Raphinha were injured, he'd actually be able to fill in tolerably well at the very minimum, without it costing us more money we could be using elsewhere. It's up to the likes of Gelhardt, Greenwood, Poveda and Summerville to provide a credible alternative in the coming seasons, assuming they stick around and/or develop.

If we can improve on any of our players and the deal is right, obviously we'll do it and the best players will presumably be self-evident over the course of the season. I reckon that the combination of factors that has seen us marginally better the base-level expectation for three sequential seasons will mean that we will improve even if the core of our team is still recognisably the same players that we had in the Championship and this current season. Realistically, my goal for the second season back would have been a midtable finish and it looks as though we're going to be ahead of schedule.

unsurprisingly i agree with Tommy. it's good to see a similar thought process on here.

coming up to the tough run of games we have in april it's going to be interesting to see how we do against the top teams the second time around. we've already beaten leicester the second time around. i'm anticipating a lot less goals going in the wrong net which should be evidence of how much we've learnt defensively already this season. Bielsa's second season in the championship showed less errors than the first and i also expect next season to be an improvement on this simply because we've got excellent coaches and players willing to learn. on top of this we've got better quality players like llorente and raphinha fully acclimatised together with higher quality youth to come in. sprinkle a top quality midfielder into the mix over the summer and we're good to go. we'll be moving forward regardless and it'll be evolution not revolution.
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dirty leeds
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby dirty leeds » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm

Fewer, ffs.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:45 pm

:mrgreen:
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Son of Leeds
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Son of Leeds » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:22 pm

We need a proper LB and a Kilich+. Many of our conceded goals have come from he ball given away in centre midfield: get someone who can do in the rem what Klich did in the Champ and we'll look much stronger.

The aim is the avoid religion for another two seasons, though preferable mid table or even a couple of places higher. Then we'll e financially much better off. At that point, with new revenue streams, we can get to where Everton are, and see what opportunities come from there.

It is much easier to stop conceding lots of goals without scoring fewer, than to go to scoring more without concending more. Last season Villa and West Ham got a healthy number of goals at 17th and 16th. This season they've simply tightened defence and are top half. Newcastle and Sheffield didn't score many last season and were mid-table or better: this season they've started to concede more without scoring more - because injuries. This is why the number 10 position isn't our main problem. The problem this season has been defending corners and not having Klich cover every bit of the pitch vacated by the other players.
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Quiffy
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Quiffy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:50 pm

dirty leeds wrote:Fewer, ffs.

aye. there ought to be less grammar pedants.
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:56 pm

Son of Leeds wrote:The aim is the avoid religion for another two seasons

Amen.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:41 pm

I think some people are feeling all warm and cosy about steady progress under Marcelo, maybe I’m a lot more worried about second season syndrome than others.
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby Bobbycollins » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:56 pm

Son of Leeds wrote:It is much easier to stop conceding lots of goals without scoring fewer, than to go to scoring more without concending more. Last season Villa and West Ham got a healthy number of goals at 17th and 16th. This season they've simply tightened defence and are top half. Newcastle and Sheffield didn't score many last season and were mid-table or better: this season they've started to concede more without scoring more - because injuries.

I totally agree with you on the goals scored and conceded point, however I think the problems at Newcastle and Sheffield United are more the result of spending fortunes on poor forwards - e.g. Joelinton and MacBurnie, rather than injuries. Yes, both clubs have had injuries - but which teams haven't been in a similar position this season? However it's not as though they were missing current international CBs.

As regards Eric's point on second season syndrome, It would be more of a worry if we didn't have a recognisable pattern of play which puts other teams on the back foot. I don't think it's a question of us "being found out" next season, as it's far harder to play against a team that attempts to win every game, than a Sheffield United or Newcastle whose main aim is merely to survive.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Let’s get to the heckingbottom of this v Leeds CK

Postby dirty leeds » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:29 pm

Bobbycollins wrote:I totally agree with you on the goals scored and conceded point, however I think the problems at Newcastle and Sheffield United are more the result of spending fortunes on poor forwards - e.g. Joelinton and MacBurnie, rather than injuries. Yes, both clubs have had injuries - but which teams haven't been in a similar position this season? However it's not as though they were missing current international CBs.


Definitely the bit in bold. Sheff U's main problems are all to do with terrible - really terrible - recruitment. All Wilder's fault, who said before the season started how happy he was with the new signings. For the dosh they've shelled, they've been shit; every last one of 'em.
Joelinton is laughably bad value for the money too.
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