Planning for next season

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby thestraw » Fri May 17, 2019 11:01 am

Yeboah wrote:
thestraw wrote:But the season isn't 23 games long for a start! So why use that stat to twist your argument. Look at the whole season. If we had a striker that could finish and an experienced leader like Milner in the middle - we go up automatically.


I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, I’m just trying to understand the logic.

Of course the league isn’t 23 games long, but surely what happened more recently is a better indicator of future performance than something that happened 8/9 months ago?

If you think Bielsa can get auto promotion here, then he needs to get back to pre Xmas form. He had 23 games to do that this season...and didn’t.

So, again I ask, why will next year be different to these last 23 games.....what needs to change.? What will change?

Your argument is that pre Xmas Leeds is the norm, when all the evidence points against that been true.

The likely truth lies between the 2 positions, I.e. playoffs again...maybe.

I've already stated what we need - and it certainly isn't a new coach. We need a striker that can actually score goals.

Its no coincidence that as soon a Roofe got injured and Bumford came in, our results dipped. Added to that the loss of Saiz in the final third. Again, if we had a decent striker all season, like Gayle, we would be in the PL. Anyone can see that.
#MOT #GAWA

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:02 am

welshwhite wrote:
rss1969 wrote:Bielsa also stated on a number of occasions that our chance creation actually increased in the 2nd half of the season.

The lack of a striker with a killer instinct has kept us down. The more chances we missed, the more we pushed on to create further chances. The Brentford and Wigan games being good examples of this. 36 shots at goal vs 10 men and only 1 goal?

Put Tammy Abraham or similar in our team and we would have been champions.


It frustrated the fuck out of our coach, he mentioned it many times.

I hope it was not on his advice that we brought Bamford here, I doubt it though.
Maybe the 49ers wanted to see some of their money spent so we sort of panic bought him.

I think we all* agree he was a mistake and he needs shifting if we're planing on going up.

*Except Ballgirl, she's obviously got the hots for him :thumbl:



Over his career he’s a 1 in 3 player (goals to games)

Tammys is better but he’s not played at as higher level or for as long.

Bamford, should be good enough in theory...... but for whatever reason, so far it hasn’t worked. Style, fitness ?

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am

thestraw wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
thestraw wrote:But the season isn't 23 games long for a start! So why use that stat to twist your argument. Look at the whole season. If we had a striker that could finish and an experienced leader like Milner in the middle - we go up automatically.


I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, I’m just trying to understand the logic.

Of course the league isn’t 23 games long, but surely what happened more recently is a better indicator of future performance than something that happened 8/9 months ago?

If you think Bielsa can get auto promotion here, then he needs to get back to pre Xmas form. He had 23 games to do that this season...and didn’t.

So, again I ask, why will next year be different to these last 23 games.....what needs to change.? What will change?

Your argument is that pre Xmas Leeds is the norm, when all the evidence points against that been true.

The likely truth lies between the 2 positions, I.e. playoffs again...maybe.

I've already stated what we need - and it certainly isn't a new coach. We need a striker that can actually score goals.

Its no coincidence that as soon a Roofe got injured and Bumford came in, our results dipped. Added to that the loss of Saiz in the final third. Again, if we had a decent striker all season, like Gayle, we would be in the PL. Anyone can see that.


Disagree but fair enough.

Once Roofe came back, we still didn’t reach pre Xmas levels.

And being porous defensively got worse as season went on.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:11 am

rss1969 wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
rss1969 wrote:Bielsa also stated on a number of occasions that our chance creation actually increased in the 2nd half of the season.

The lack of a striker with a killer instinct has kept us down. The more chances we missed, the more we pushed on to create further chances. The Brentford and Wigan games being good examples of this. 36 shots at goal vs 10 men and only 1 goal?

Put Tammy Abraham or similar in our team and we would have been champions.


Not sure on definition of chances , real proper chances.

But I watched the Wigan game and 2nd half we never really looked like scoring.

Besides we don’t have the money to get a Tammy Abraham type player.


We havent been prolific from inside the box or outside the box. Not every goal scored is a 2 yard tap in but we have been particularly bad at those types of goals (Wigan, Brum, Reading, Brentford I could go on and on) Your comment about us not looking like scoring vs Wigan actually back up what I have posted. With Bamford on the pitch we look like scoring less often than when he does not play.

Pukki cost fuck all and scored 28 goals.

It seems that whatever point is put forward you are not happy with Bielsa and will dig out any type of fact to dismiss his impact.

Pulis is available. Maybe you would be delighted if we bring him in?



With Wigan, the most frustrating thing was the Alioski, Harrison combo. Must have had 20+ opportunities to attack down that side in the 2nd half, never looked like working.

Why didn’t the manager change something if only for 5 mins or so?

Pulis? No ta.....but results wise I suspect the final outcome would be similar.

London_White
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: exiled in west sussex

Re: Planning for next season

Postby London_White » Fri May 17, 2019 11:11 am

I think Bamford is 1 in 3 for us isn't he? - 9 in 22 unless I'm adding it up wrong?
I don't think he's suited to our style of play, but then I'm not altogether sure what he is suited to. Injuries obviously haven't helped as you need to be constantly playing to keep up the level of match fitness demanded by our style

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:18 am

London_White wrote:
rss1969 wrote:Bielsa also stated on a number of occasions that our chance creation actually increased in the 2nd half of the season.

The lack of a striker with a killer instinct has kept us down. The more chances we missed, the more we pushed on to create further chances.


Last 8 league games 167 shots 39 on target 7 goals
Opponents 62 shots 21 on target 9 goals

over 2.5 times as many shots nearly twice as many on target yet fewer goals (this includes the two v Villa by the way) - doesn't look to me like the issue is really with the defending, if the opponents can score with one shot in three but it takes us seven then it's clear we haven't got the firepower, either that or we don't have the guile/nous to create better opportunities and end up shooting from worse positions.


Interesting stat, thanks.

What’s norm for a good team, Norwich or Blades?

Conceding nearly 50% of shots on target seems frighteningly high!

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:19 am

London_White wrote:I think Bamford is 1 in 3 for us isn't he? - 9 in 22 unless I'm adding it up wrong?
I don't think he's suited to our style of play, but then I'm not altogether sure what he is suited to. Injuries obviously haven't helped as you need to be constantly playing to keep up the level of match fitness demanded by our style


Yeah that’s fair.

Be interesting to know if Bielsa really wanted him.

London_White
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: exiled in west sussex

Re: Planning for next season

Postby London_White » Fri May 17, 2019 11:25 am

Yeboah wrote:
London_White wrote:
rss1969 wrote:Bielsa also stated on a number of occasions that our chance creation actually increased in the 2nd half of the season.

The lack of a striker with a killer instinct has kept us down. The more chances we missed, the more we pushed on to create further chances.


Last 8 league games 167 shots 39 on target 7 goals
Opponents 62 shots 21 on target 9 goals

over 2.5 times as many shots nearly twice as many on target yet fewer goals (this includes the two v Villa by the way) - doesn't look to me like the issue is really with the defending, if the opponents can score with one shot in three but it takes us seven then it's clear we haven't got the firepower, either that or we don't have the guile/nous to create better opportunities and end up shooting from worse positions.


Interesting stat, thanks.

What’s norm for a good team, Norwich or Blades?

Conceding nearly 50% of shots on target seems frighteningly high!


Yes, after I'd posted that I thought you might say that :D
My take on it is that we aren't creating enough 'good' chances so we're shooting from outside the box because we've run out of options - see all the blocked shots v Wigan for example. Perhaps it's more the lack of Saiz (or of course a similar player other than Pablo) meaning we lack a creative edge as opposed to a cutting edge?
I do think we have the right man in charge but I agree with a couple of your points about him not changing things during the game, I feel that this comes back down to personnel and his confidence in them more than inflexibility on his part

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
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Re: Planning for next season

Postby Blackwhite » Fri May 17, 2019 11:35 am

rss1969 wrote:Bielsa also stated on a number of occasions that our chance creation actually increased in the 2nd half of the season.

The lack of a striker with a killer instinct has kept us down. The more chances we missed, the more we pushed on to create further chances. The Brentford and Wigan games being good examples of this. 36 shots at goal vs 10 men and only 1 goal?

Put Tammy Abraham or similar in our team and we would have been champions.

Amen.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Fri May 17, 2019 11:41 am

London_White wrote:
Yes, after I'd posted that I thought you might say that :D
My take on it is that we aren't creating enough 'good' chances so we're shooting from outside the box because we've run out of options - see all the blocked shots v Wigan for example. Perhaps it's more the lack of Saiz (or of course a similar player other than Pablo) meaning we lack a creative edge as opposed to a cutting edge?
I do think we have the right man in charge but I agree with a couple of your points about him not changing things during the game, I feel that this comes back down to personnel and his confidence in them more than inflexibility on his part


Lol, cheers!

I think, teams have adapted tactically to us as the season has gone on. They sit in and defend then try to hit on break as we inevitably commit more and more people forward, as we don’t have enough technical ability to beat a resolute defensive team.

Would have hoped coach would notice and try something different, if only for small patches of games. Make the opposition think you’ll do something ‘else’.

London_White
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: exiled in west sussex

Re: Planning for next season

Postby London_White » Fri May 17, 2019 11:42 am

[quote="London_White"][quote="Yeboah"][quote="London_White"][quote="rss1969"]

What’s norm for a good team, Norwich or Blades?

Norwich had 151 shots, 46 on target, 16 goals
10% fewer shots but double the number of goals and slightly more shots on target, they also scored in all 8 games whereas we only scored in 6 (and one of those was Villa when you could argue they'd mostly stopped)
For opponents v Norwich 96 shots 36 on target 9 goals

London_White
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: exiled in west sussex

Re: Planning for next season

Postby London_White » Fri May 17, 2019 11:51 am

Yeboah wrote:
London_White wrote:


I think, teams have adapted tactically to us as the season has gone on. They sit in and defend then try to hit on break as we inevitably commit more and more people forward, as we don’t have enough technical ability to beat a resolute defensive team.



Yep - agree with this - we have one plan, if it doesn't work then it's not the plan but the application of it that's at fault so you all need to work harder at the plan. This approach works when you have a squad the size and quality of Man City as they showed in the league.
If Bielsa can just add some 'wildcard' aspect to the play either by having a plan b or by adding a Saiz equivalent, then I have every confidence we will go up next year. My concern is that as you say, teams have worked out how to play us and it suits the more 'limited' styles of Wigan, Ipswich etc to sit back and wait.

emtee
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby emtee » Fri May 17, 2019 12:23 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
emtee wrote:were not gettin james forget it
even if scum was nonsense a shite pl club will blow us out of the water


I refer you to the word 'fantasyland' in my post.

Daniel James might well end up at, say, Bournemouth or Newcastle or indeed one of the three promoted clubs.


ok great ill edit mine 2 say we replace pablo wi messi

emtee
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby emtee » Fri May 17, 2019 12:24 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:Little bit late to this one and I think of my view has been expressed already across this thread but here goes:

1. Infrastructure and Culture

What Bielsa has done for the club as a whole is something special, I'm sure there's more to do to cement it all though. He needs to be retained for next season, the general approach he's brought needs to become the culture at the club, Corboran should be groomed as Bielsa's successor, when the time comes.

2. Outgoings

It's way too early to know where players heads are at but we do know we tend to lose at least one big player a season. Trying to figure out who has a market value:
Phillips - Undoubtedly good enough for a higher level in the role he now occupies and I think he knows it. He shouldn't be allowed to go cheap though, can we get someone to part with over £10m?
Jansson - We've had 3 years out of him, which is 2 more than many thought, will he now be looking upwards without us?
Roofe - I think the injuries disguise his impact this season so hopefully he'll sign a new contract rather than go into his final season. If I were looking to gamble on a "lower league" striker I think I'd look at Gayle and Maupay before considering Roofe so would imagine his real options would be a sideways move.

After that I'm struggling. I'm taking Ekuban as a done deal for the reported £1m-£2m and assuming we'll end up taking £3m ish for Saiz - can't see him back here. Also assuming the lads loaned out this season will either be moved on or given a chance in the U23s but no further.

Harrison and Brown obviously leaving (though I wouldn't against both returning if they can come in on average wages if only for some consistency and a belief we likely won't go all out for true quality.

3. Retained/promoted/can't get rid of/general need to retain a good level of consistency

Kiko will be our #1, he's contracted for years and won't be on low wages, we'd struggle to ship him out. BPF may as well remain as his backup (and must fancy his chances of being #1 again soon).
Ayling is championship at best, he knows he's onto a good thing the way we play. Likewise Douglas, Berardi, Cooper, Forshaw, Dallas and probably Klich and Alioski.
Roberts stop/start season will likely see him stay through lack of big offers and I'd like to think Clarke/Shackleton would fancy the KP approach rather than the Byram approach - regular first team players next season.
Bamford because we'll not get our money back and he might be ok from the bench for 20 minutes/away from the main striking role

4. Stepping up from the U23s

In addition to CLarke/Shack having full seasons there will be 2 or 3 more on the fringes, not exactly sure who though - Bogusz maybe? Edmondson?

5. Incomings

We've got to replace Pablo so at the very least he can sprinkle some magic without needing to carry the team and play anything like 46 games. We've got to replace Saiz so whoever replaces Pablo isn't expected to carry the team alone. I'd love Milner to be the main man but I doubt he'd drop to the Championship, still too good.

We've got to replace Harrison and we were in the market for another winger anyway. Bielsa found James before he really announced himself 2nd half of the season, have to hope he has other players identified. I'd also like to think there are many good players who've seen how we play and really fancy some of that - whether we could finance them over a low end PL option likely to scupper this thought though.

Also need to replace anyone from 2. who does actually go. If its Pontus it doesn't need to be a colossus - a taller/less violent Berardi analogue would do it. If It's Phillips... has that Ronaldo Vieira lad lost any value in the last year?


bielsa said orta found james not him

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby thestraw » Fri May 17, 2019 1:03 pm

Yeboah wrote:
London_White wrote:I think Bamford is 1 in 3 for us isn't he? - 9 in 22 unless I'm adding it up wrong?
I don't think he's suited to our style of play, but then I'm not altogether sure what he is suited to. Injuries obviously haven't helped as you need to be constantly playing to keep up the level of match fitness demanded by our style


Yeah that’s fair.

Be interesting to know if Bielsa really wanted him.

He wanted Vydra
#MOT #GAWA

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby jackos » Fri May 17, 2019 1:34 pm

thestraw wrote:But the season isn't 23 games long for a start! So why use that stat to twist your argument. Look at the whole season. If we had a striker that could finish and an experienced leader like Milner in the middle - we go up automatically.


Now you mention Milner. If budget meant I had to choose between Bielsa staying or Corberan on the bench and Milner captioning the team on the pitch I would pick Corberan and James. Bielsa has been great for our club and I pray we can afford to keep him and invest in.the squad, equally I cant think of anything better than seeing Milner captain us to the PL in our Centenary season.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Planning for next season

Postby dirty leeds » Fri May 17, 2019 1:35 pm

emtee wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
emtee wrote:were not gettin james forget it
even if scum was nonsense a shite pl club will blow us out of the water


I refer you to the word 'fantasyland' in my post.

Daniel James might well end up at, say, Bournemouth or Newcastle or indeed one of the three promoted clubs.


ok great ill edit mine 2 say we replace pablo wi messi


:D

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby jackos » Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 pm

Yeboah wrote:Conceding nearly 50% of shots on target seems frighteningly high!


Agree. What is the average for the championship / tops clubs at our level? To me this would imply that the problem is KiKo - but we were terrible in our last 8 games to the comparison might not be fair. We know for certain that Kiko has been massive problem in the run in.

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby thestraw » Fri May 17, 2019 1:45 pm

jackos wrote:
Yeboah wrote:Conceding nearly 50% of shots on target seems frighteningly high!


Agree. What is the average for the championship / tops clubs at our level? To me this would imply that the problem is KiKo - but we were terrible in our last 8 games to the comparison might not be fair. We know for certain that Kiko has been massive problem in the run in.

Kiko is a problem, for sure. I mean, how may really big, game changing saves has he produced? In comparison to BPF i'd say he would be well behind. Never mind the first one, Derby's 2nd on Wednesday was an example - BPF saves that imo. The problem with BPF is that the defence lost confidence in him. Id say the same thing happened to Kiko against Derby - with dire consequences.
#MOT #GAWA

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MightyWhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:38 am
Location: Notts

Re: Planning for next season

Postby MightyWhite » Sat May 18, 2019 5:55 am

Watching the game last night, Malik Wilkes??
Keep Fighting
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