Planning for next season

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rss1969
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby rss1969 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:54 pm

One thing that I do know.

I feel a hell of a lot better about the season that has just finished than any of the last since 2010. Failure or not we have seen real progress for the first time in years rather than bleak stagnation.

Yes it hurts that we did not go up in the end but I am already looking forward to next season if Bielsa stays and has reasonable backing and keeps the players he wants to (nothing wishful or fanciful in there just pragmatic planning).

Andymac-47
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:06 pm
Location: Belfast

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Andymac-47 » Tue May 21, 2019 7:10 pm

rss1969 wrote:One thing that I do know.

I feel a hell of a lot better about the season that has just finished than any of the last since 2010. Failure or not we have seen real progress for the first time in years rather than bleak stagnation.

Yes it hurts that we did not go up in the end but I am already looking forward to next season if Bielsa stays and has reasonable backing and keeps the players he wants to (nothing wishful or fanciful in there just pragmatic planning).

This, too many highs this season for me. There is a lot more positives to be building on for next season.
Andymac

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Tue May 21, 2019 7:12 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Yeboah wrote:Do the Leeds fans on here actually want promotion or would they prefer Champ football played nicely in front of a great crowd, that ultimately ends in failure?

Genuine question.


And it's a question that you would ask - because it's all black or white to you.
I want promotion and I want it by playing good football that clearly shows us as being the best team in the league.


Fair enough....

What if you can’t have both?

Choice between promotion or good football

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Planning for next season

Postby dirty leeds » Tue May 21, 2019 7:20 pm

Yeboah wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
Yeboah wrote:Do the Leeds fans on here actually want promotion or would they prefer Champ football played nicely in front of a great crowd, that ultimately ends in failure?

Genuine question.


And it's a question that you would ask - because it's all black or white to you.
I want promotion and I want it by playing good football that clearly shows us as being the best team in the league.


Fair enough....

What if you can’t have both?

Choice between promotion or good football


But that isn't the choice in reality. It's just a conversational gambit, a game. I don't have to choose.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Tue May 21, 2019 7:24 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
But that isn't the choice in reality. It's just a conversational gambit, a game. I don't have to choose.


Fine....bizarre, but fine.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Planning for next season

Postby dirty leeds » Tue May 21, 2019 7:46 pm

Yeboah wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
But that isn't the choice in reality. It's just a conversational gambit, a game. I don't have to choose.


Fine....bizarre, but fine.


I think your definition of 'bizarre' needs little work. :D

I'm just saying that I reject your selection of it being one thing or the other, that's all. Norwich and Sheff U both played good football AND were promoted. We played good football and were not. Boro played crap football and didn't do so well.
Your question seeks to put me in a corner to prove your point, and I refuse to be cornered like that.

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Phil LUFC » Tue May 21, 2019 7:50 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
But that isn't the choice in reality. It's just a conversational gambit, a game. I don't have to choose.


Fine....bizarre, but fine.


I think your definition of 'bizarre' needs little work. :D

I'm just saying that I reject your selection of it being one thing or the other, that's all. Norwich and Sheff U both played good football AND were promoted. We played good football and were not. Boro played crap football and didn't do so well.
Your question seeks to put me in a corner to prove your point, and I refuse to be cornered like that.

Nobody puts Dirty in a corner.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Tue May 21, 2019 8:00 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
But that isn't the choice in reality. It's just a conversational gambit, a game. I don't have to choose.


Fine....bizarre, but fine.


I think your definition of 'bizarre' needs little work. :D

I'm just saying that I reject your selection of it being one thing or the other, that's all. Norwich and Sheff U both played good football AND were promoted. We played good football and were not. Boro played crap football and didn't do so well.
Your question seeks to put me in a corner to prove your point, and I refuse to be cornered like that.


Yeah I get it, I’m just intrigued by mentality.

Problem is, there is no status quo.

Club isn’t financially viable at all, run as a business. Less so paying coaching staff £6m to not take us up.

We need to go up.......or we will go down.

A £20m operating loss isn’t sustainable

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: UK

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Tommy » Tue May 21, 2019 8:22 pm

Had a think for a few days and I've come to realise that Bielsa and Radrizzani have a couple of things in common (and no doubt some stuff that they are polar opposites on) - they have both done well for us and I fully believe they've both contributed to our eventual success in the coming years but I don't think either will achieve it here. It's weird because I don't want either to go (which is as well because it seems neither are) but as long as they are here I think we'll always fall just short for a few frustrating reasons (most of which are in themselves admirable/sensible traits).

Radrizzani

Money
- It's good to live within our means and stay on the right side of FFP.
- It seems extraordinary to say it given that he's invested so much money getting us this far but he's not quite wealthy enough to outright own a club at the level of Leeds United, ostensibly challenging for promotion.

Recruitment
- It's gratifying that he has so much faith in Orta given the previous turnover of staff. He's also brought in some good players and particularly has improved the U23s and below.
- He will likely never replace Orta, who is a decent enough DOF but has to accept responsibility for the number of fairly middling players we've brought in at considerable expense. As far as I can work out under Orta we've spent about £30m in such players excluding the wages spent on players signed on a free or loaned in.

Networking
- Seemingly has lots of worldwide contacts through his media sports concerns.
- The connections he has made for us (Qatar, Myanmar, 49ers?) don't seem to actually go anywhere or have any obvious material benefit to our club.

Bielsa

Tactics
- Has unflinching faith in his system and when it works, produces wonderfully entertaining attacking football.
- Seems to lack versatility and his preferred system doesn't seem to have a mode other than attack, which is sometimes counterproductive in the Championship.

Fitness
- Demands that players are extremely fit and his sides seem to win more games in the final phase.
- Sometimes places too much emphasis on athleticism, thus having little room for less mobile but more creative players. Also seems to run his players into the ground (see below).

Squad
- Keeps a small squad and includes young developing players when necessary.
- Perhaps too attached to his chosen few, to the extent that the first team favourites can start to show signs of tiring. Sometimes reluctant to use youth when it would seem to be obvious.

It could be that I'm still feeling down due to the particularly Leeds-y way we fucked up the season (even though actually we did much better than I'd dared to hope) but given all of the above and specifically the fact that we're almost definitely going to lose at least a couple of our few good players and be stuck with quite a few who I now strongly suspect aren't quite good enough (ironically most of whom we paid a small fortunate for and continue to do so), I think next season will be a bit of pisser. No chance of relegation or owt but I suspect that the top two will continue to elude us and perhaps a season where we spend most of the season hovering around the mid-table beckons.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby the flying pig » Tue May 21, 2019 8:24 pm

Yeboah wrote:...paying coaching staff £6m to not take us up...


you're right on this one, it's massively unsustainable given that our turnover is c£35m. it accounts for a huge slug of our total running costs, almost certainly, by a very large distance, the highest % across the 92 clubs.

but, y'know what, it almost worked last year. i can't think of any sensible reason not to give it one more try, if the money can somehoe be found.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
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Re: Planning for next season

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue May 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Fucking idiotic dichotomy here; promotion or another thing.

You can’t set about a deterministic procedure which is 100% guaranteed to deliver promotion. Maybe on a budget of £100m you could get past 99.8% but you still couldn’t guarantee it.

At the same time, three teams from 24 will get promoted. It’s possible to play shitty football and get promoted, but I think your odds might be better playing beautiful football. Apart from anything else, it seems reasonable to suggest that players who are capable of playing beautiful football have to be better players, technically, and better players are more likely to win games.

So I’d like us to attempt to get promoted and to attempt to play beautiful football. This year, we came very, very close as I’ve said before. But for the odd injury, the odd refereeing decision, the odd scuffed shot we might have gone up auto.

So, for me, we don’t change the car. We change the plugs, maybe the turbo bearings and gas flow the inlet manifold. And we go again. Doesn’t seem that complicated.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Tue May 21, 2019 9:14 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Fucking idiotic dichotomy here; promotion or another thing.

You can’t set about a deterministic procedure which is 100% guaranteed to deliver promotion. Maybe on a budget of £100m you could get past 99.8% but you still couldn’t guarantee it.

At the same time, three teams from 24 will get promoted. It’s possible to play shitty football and get promoted, but I think your odds might be better playing beautiful football. Apart from anything else, it seems reasonable to suggest that players who are capable of playing beautiful football have to be better players, technically, and better players are more likely to win games.

So I’d like us to attempt to get promoted and to attempt to play beautiful football. This year, we came very, very close as I’ve said before. But for the odd injury, the odd refereeing decision, the odd scuffed shot we might have gone up auto.

So, for me, we don’t change the car. We change the plugs, maybe the turbo bearings and gas flow the inlet manifold. And we go again. Doesn’t seem that complicated.


Mental fortitude is probably a greater skill....but I digress.

If the 2019/2020 season starts as the 2018/2019 ended and we are set for mid table mediocrity would you suggest a change or sticking as we are?

It could be argued that a fluke run before Xmas put us in the position we got to and post Xmas is the norm. in which case it’s £6m for 9th/10th followed by fire sales and relegation battles.

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Phil LUFC » Tue May 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Yeboah wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:Fucking idiotic dichotomy here; promotion or another thing.

You can’t set about a deterministic procedure which is 100% guaranteed to deliver promotion. Maybe on a budget of £100m you could get past 99.8% but you still couldn’t guarantee it.

At the same time, three teams from 24 will get promoted. It’s possible to play shitty football and get promoted, but I think your odds might be better playing beautiful football. Apart from anything else, it seems reasonable to suggest that players who are capable of playing beautiful football have to be better players, technically, and better players are more likely to win games.

So I’d like us to attempt to get promoted and to attempt to play beautiful football. This year, we came very, very close as I’ve said before. But for the odd injury, the odd refereeing decision, the odd scuffed shot we might have gone up auto.

So, for me, we don’t change the car. We change the plugs, maybe the turbo bearings and gas flow the inlet manifold. And we go again. Doesn’t seem that complicated.


Mental fortitude is probably a greater skill....but I digress.

If the 2019/2020 season starts as the 2018/2019 ended and we are set for mid table mediocrity would you suggest a change or sticking as we are?

It could be argued that a fluke run before Xmas put us in the position we got to and post Xmas is the norm. in which case it’s £6m for 9th/10th followed by fire sales and relegation battles.

To be fair, this is what I worry about every season under any manager. Much has been made recently about Farke finishing 16th in his first season Vs Bielsa's 3rd but if Farke had been our manager he doesn't see out a season heading to 16th never mind get another one.

I genuinely hope we stick by Bielsa for a 2nd full season no matter what but it doesn't matter what I think, if it's heading South knees will jerk and pressure will grow with inevitable results. But the way I see it Bielsa has some good will in the tank, he's got more chance of weathering a storm than someone new.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: Planning for next season

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue May 21, 2019 10:17 pm

So let me get this straight. There is only success - ie promotion - or failure - ie not promotion. Given that only three teams can be promoted, there is a necessary imperative to replace the manager of the other twenty one teams, which fail, every season. Okay. Doesn’t seem like a particularly sustainable model.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Yeboah » Tue May 21, 2019 10:20 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:So let me get this straight. There is only success - ie promotion - or failure - ie not promotion. Given that only three teams can be promoted, there is a necessary imperative to replace the manager of the other twenty one teams, which fail, every season. Okay. Doesn’t seem like a particularly sustainable model.


Depends if any of those managers are getting paid c.10% of the turnover to not get promoted. Sustainable?

You pay top dollar to get tangible results surely?

Otherwise....what’s the point.?

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: Planning for next season

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue May 21, 2019 10:22 pm

Yeboah wrote:It could be argued that a fluke run before Xmas put us in the position we got to and post Xmas is the norm. in which case it’s £6m for 9th/10th followed by fire sales and relegation battles.


No, it couldn’t.

There’s no such thing as a 25+ game ‘fluke run’.

There’s no such thing is a ‘norm’ either. A season is a reflection of its own parameters.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: Planning for next season

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue May 21, 2019 10:25 pm

Yeboah wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:So let me get this straight. There is only success - ie promotion - or failure - ie not promotion. Given that only three teams can be promoted, there is a necessary imperative to replace the manager of the other twenty one teams, which fail, every season. Okay. Doesn’t seem like a particularly sustainable model.


Depends if any of those managers are getting paid c.10% of the turnover to not get promoted. Sustainable?

You pay top dollar to get tangible results surely?

Otherwise....what’s the point.?


Equivocation then. It isn’t win or lose, it’s conditional on how much the manager is paid. What’s an acceptable salary for a manager to deliver a third place finish?

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: UK

Planning for next season

Postby Tommy » Tue May 21, 2019 10:27 pm

But with Bielsa he virtually pays for himself. Almost literally given that he paid all the fines etc (probably £300k). Add the improved gate receipts and match day revenue, not to mention the improvement of worldwide visibility to the club and more importantly the value his staff have (at least in theory) added to some of our players. I'm one of those people who believed that Phillips was always very good but regardless of who gets credit, this past season probably quadrupled his worth if not more. I should imagine we'll see more of the same this coming season with some of the Academy graduates.

Compare that to the money we've pissed away on some really lukewarm footballers of late and quibbling over a few million seems daft. In order to work out how much we've spent on players who I think ultimately aren't quite good enough and/or have not shown their worth or been otherwise disappointing, I compiled this list of signings under Radrizzani/Orta excluding the two that I think worked out, Klich (£1.5m) and Roberts (£3m) -

Buys

Bamford - £7m
Forshaw - £4.5m
Douglas - £3m
Saiz - £3m
Alioski - £2.5m
De Bock - £1.5m
Cibicki - £1.5m
Grot - £1.5m
Sacko - £1.5m
Ekuban - £500k
Wiedwald - £400k

Significant Wages/Loan Fees

Casilla
Harrison
Brown
Blackman
Baker
Anita
Pennington
Borthwick-Jackson
Ideguchi
Lonergan
Lasogga

Not to say that the above are/were totally without merit or even bad signings on paper, they've just not (yet?) proved to be as good as I'd have hoped or have otherwise disappointed at crucial times etc.

rss1969
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby rss1969 » Wed May 22, 2019 6:59 am

Looking at the list above it just keeps bouncing back to our loan signings.

Villa - Mings, Tuanzebe, Abraham (there was also the winger from Everton who was part of their mid seaon revival cant remeember his name)
Derby - Tomori, Mount, Wilson

They are THE reason that both clubs finished in top 6 ultimately with one of them to go up.

No championship club can sustain wages north of 50k a week but they can bring in quality loans that have been making the big difference over the last 4/5 seasons now.

It is imperative that we sign some quality on loan this coming season.

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Tycipa
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:39 pm

Re: Planning for next season

Postby Tycipa » Wed May 22, 2019 9:07 am

rss1969 wrote:Looking at the list above it just keeps bouncing back to our loan signings.

Villa - Mings, Tuanzebe, Abraham (there was also the winger from Everton who was part of their mid seaon revival cant remeember his name)
Derby - Tomori, Mount, Wilson

They are THE reason that both clubs finished in top 6 ultimately with one of them to go up.

No championship club can sustain wages north of 50k a week but they can bring in quality loans that have been making the big difference over the last 4/5 seasons now.

It is imperative that we sign some quality on loan this coming season.

And one of them won’t go up and be substantially out of pocket.
The fact that we are not taking care of the planet, our children will pay the consequences. With football it will be the same because we're destroying football and in the future we'll see the negative effects. Those who have power are responsible for it.


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