Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

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Ontolly
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Ontolly » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:00 pm

metalsmurf wrote:They obviousley want to know if any of their own staff/players, people with access inside the training grounds were complicit, as would we.

We already know :study:
The only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter was that his name wasn't Henry Porter.

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jackos
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby jackos » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:18 pm

I think they're trying to make it sounds bad a possible. First stating that it is a breach of an article, which they might think that, but it's not for them to decide. Then implying we must have paid someone to spy and requesting names. And also implying we might have access to other confidential information.

We're talking about an intern standing looking over a fence to watch a team train. They are implying something a lot worse.

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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Chieftain626 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:37 pm

Letter is nothing new than we already knew the teams would want.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:51 pm

By the by really, but from a legal standpoint I think it would be very ill-advised to give any names over. Provided they weren’t known to the other clubs it doesn’t have any bearing on the supposed ‘crime’.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:13 pm

jackos wrote:I think they're trying to make it sounds bad a possible. First stating that it is a breach of an article, which they might think that, but it's not for them to decide. Then implying we must have paid someone to spy and requesting names. And also implying we might have access to other confidential information.

We're talking about an intern standing looking over a fence to watch a team train. They are implying something a lot worse.


I agree in principle; the only which is difficult is if any of these teams have training grounds which are absolutely inaccessible without breaking in. If MB has said ‘We watched every team’ then some may be entitled to ask how.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:57 pm

Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.

EDIT: as an aside on this, it’s interesting that a few of these look quite shit. Particularly the clubs which have never had a stint in the Prem; a few look to be shared with universities, tacked on to the side of public playing fields etc.

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metalsmurf
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby metalsmurf » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:59 pm

jackos wrote:This is the important bit isn't it? "Dear Sean"

Image

Can't believe they've sat on this for 12 months and only brought it out now when we are top.... :wink:
Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.

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OWETB
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby OWETB » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.


Good effort agent eric.

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Quiffy
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Quiffy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:04 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.

EDIT: as an aside on this, it’s interesting that a few of these look quite shit. Particularly the clubs which have never had a stint in the Prem; a few look to be shared with universities, tacked on to the side of public playing fields etc.

are you on twitter eric under the 'tog' handle?

question is 'nerd' or 'sad obsessive'? which i realise is splitting hairs.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby dirty leeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:46 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:I agree in principle; the only which is difficult is if any of these teams have training grounds which are absolutely inaccessible without breaking in. If MB has said ‘We watched every team’ then some may be entitled to ask how.


Are we any clearer about what he actually said/meant so say at that press conference about this?
Obviously I'm relying on the translations, but did he definitely say, "We watched all the teams in training before we played them." or did he preface it with something along the lines of, "Let's just say we did this... what rule has been broken?"

One for Musta, maybe?

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:52 pm

Quiffy wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.

EDIT: as an aside on this, it’s interesting that a few of these look quite shit. Particularly the clubs which have never had a stint in the Prem; a few look to be shared with universities, tacked on to the side of public playing fields etc.

are you on twitter eric under the 'tog' handle?

question is 'nerd' or 'sad obsessive'? which i realise is splitting hairs.


Yep. Dunno why I chose to make that distinction really. Cut and paste glitched so I chose to complete it differently.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:11 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I agree in principle; the only which is difficult is if any of these teams have training grounds which are absolutely inaccessible without breaking in. If MB has said ‘We watched every team’ then some may be entitled to ask how.


Are we any clearer about what he actually said/meant so say at that press conference about this?
Obviously I'm relying on the translations, but did he definitely say, "We watched all the teams in training before we played them." or did he preface it with something along the lines of, "Let's just say we did this... what rule has been broken?"

One for Musta, maybe?

Gimme the link and I'll tell ya.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:41 am

Mustafaster wrote:Gimme the link and I'll tell ya.


It's the part near the beginning that has been translated thus:

“One other point I would like to talk about is that I’m going to make it easier for the investigation of the league.

“I’m going to give the information it needs and I assume the fact that my behaviour is heard from the most extreme position.

“In a few words I can tell you we observed all the rivals we played against and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them.


“My goal is to make the investigation easier and I don’t think that something is going to make worse what they are looking for than what I’m saying right now."

The bit in bold is what I suppose I mean. Has that been translated correctly?
On the YEP site it's translated as:

"One point I would like to talk about is that I am going to make it easy for the investigation of the league. I will give them what they need.
"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed. I observed all the rivals and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them. My goal is to make the investigation easier."

"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed." - Is he saying just they did it in full view of people at the training grounds? Or what?
"I observed al the rivals... all the training sessions of the opponents..." - surely we haven't watched ALL the sessions of every team, so that can't be right?

Here's the link of the intro - watch from about 4 mins:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/leed ... e-15687476

And did he even say what he meant to say?

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thestraw
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby thestraw » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:26 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.

This is really interesting to hear - if you can watch them train from the public road/property I cant see how they have too many complaints really - the EFL should be telling them that they cant prevent this from happening and its up to the clubs to make changes to the training grounds to prevent it and make it more difficult for people watching/spying on their training sessions; whilst at the same time telling them to fcuk off with their demands in their letter to their buddy Shauney from 2018 :wink:
#MOT #GAWA

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the flying pig
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby the flying pig » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:38 am

yeah, dunno. man citeh's famously is.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GG ... h_YXSH2BM8

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Mustafaster
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:59 am

dirty leeds wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:Gimme the link and I'll tell ya.


It's the part near the beginning that has been translated thus:

“One other point I would like to talk about is that I’m going to make it easier for the investigation of the league.

“I’m going to give the information it needs and I assume the fact that my behaviour is heard from the most extreme position.

“In a few words I can tell you we observed all the rivals we played against and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them.


“My goal is to make the investigation easier and I don’t think that something is going to make worse what they are looking for than what I’m saying right now."

The bit in bold is what I suppose I mean. Has that been translated correctly?
On the YEP site it's translated as:

"One point I would like to talk about is that I am going to make it easy for the investigation of the league. I will give them what they need.
"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed. I observed all the rivals and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them. My goal is to make the investigation easier."

"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed." - Is he saying just they did it in full view of people at the training grounds? Or what?
"I observed al the rivals... all the training sessions of the opponents..." - surely we haven't watched ALL the sessions of every team, so that can't be right?

Here's the link of the intro - watch from about 4 mins:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/leed ... e-15687476

And did he even say what he meant to say?

Ok....
So, first of all, you can't take any word or phrase in isolation, especially with somebody like Bielsa.
It's hard to get an idea of his character if you don't speak the language. He's an intellectual, every word and phrase counts, and it builds to a coherent whole. In an issue of The Square Ball I made a comparison of Bielsa and Borges precisely because of this Argentinian intellectual aspect.He's not speaking off the cuff, it's a carefully prepared statement.

Personally I'd never dream of doing a spontaneous live simultaneous translation of anything like that. If you have a written, prepared statement you get a bloody good look at it beforehand.
But we are where we are.

The translator is doing a decent enough job until we hit the point immediately before Bielsa says he's observed everybody.
He uses the word " sinteticamente" and you can actually see the translator's eyes roll as he thinks Oh fuck! Quite. It's a translator's worst nightmare when someone chucks that kind of thing at you.
What does he do? He just lets it slide and hopes for the best. Understandable, in his position I'm doing the same.

This word is crucial to understanding the complete message, which is very subtle and nuanced.
Just before this point he says that he's going to make the investigation as easy as possible for the FL and assume the worst possible interpretation of his actions.
Here's where the word sinteticamente becomes crucial.
There's no real one-word translation for this. It means more or less the opposite of "analytically". Synthesis and analysis are opposed in Spanish and to a degree in English.
In simple terms: Analysis means looking at each case individually and breaking it down to constituent parts, synthesis means looking at things as a whole.

What Bielsa is saying here is that to facilitate the investigation the FL should assume that he's seen all the training sessions of all our opponents and not concentrate on isolated cases such as Derby.

He didn't say they had done it, he said that for the sake of argument the FL should assume he did.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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metalsmurf
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Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby metalsmurf » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 am

Mustafaster wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:Gimme the link and I'll tell ya.


It's the part near the beginning that has been translated thus:

“One other point I would like to talk about is that I’m going to make it easier for the investigation of the league.

“I’m going to give the information it needs and I assume the fact that my behaviour is heard from the most extreme position.

“In a few words I can tell you we observed all the rivals we played against and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them.


“My goal is to make the investigation easier and I don’t think that something is going to make worse what they are looking for than what I’m saying right now."

The bit in bold is what I suppose I mean. Has that been translated correctly?
On the YEP site it's translated as:

"One point I would like to talk about is that I am going to make it easy for the investigation of the league. I will give them what they need.
"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed. I observed all the rivals and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them. My goal is to make the investigation easier."

"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed." - Is he saying just they did it in full view of people at the training grounds? Or what?
"I observed al the rivals... all the training sessions of the opponents..." - surely we haven't watched ALL the sessions of every team, so that can't be right?

Here's the link of the intro - watch from about 4 mins:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/leed ... e-15687476

And did he even say what he meant to say?

Ok....
So, first of all, you can't take any word or phrase in isolation, especially with somebody like Bielsa.
It's hard to get an idea of his character if you don't speak the language. He's an intellectual, every word and phrase counts, and it builds to a coherent whole. In an issue of The Square Ball I made a comparison of Bielsa and Borges precisely because of this Argentinian intellectual aspect.He's not speaking off the cuff, it's a carefully prepared statement.

Personally I'd never dream of doing a spontaneous live simultaneous translation of anything like that. If you have a written, prepared statement you get a bloody good look at it beforehand.
But we are where we are.

The translator is doing a decent enough job until we hit the point immediately before Bielsa says he's observed everybody.
He uses the word " sinteticamente" and you can actually see the translator's eyes roll as he thinks Oh fuck! Quite. It's a translator's worst nightmare when someone chucks that kind of thing at you.
What does he do? He just lets it slide and hopes for the best. Understandable, in his position I'm doing the same.

This word is crucial to understanding the complete message, which is very subtle and nuanced.
Just before this point he says that he's going to make the investigation as easy as possible for the FL and assume the worst possible interpretation of his actions.
Here's where the word sinteticamente becomes crucial.
There's no real one-word translation for this. It means more or less the opposite of "analytically". Synthesis and analysis are opposed in Spanish and to a degree in English.
In simple terms: Analysis means looking at each case individually and breaking it down to constituent parts, synthesis means looking at things as a whole.

What Bielsa is saying here is that to facilitate the investigation the FL should assume that he's seen all the training sessions of all our opponents and not concentrate on isolated cases such as Derby.

He didn't say they had done it, he said that for the sake of argument the FL should assume he did.

What you are saying makes sense to me but lets remember we're dealing with an ex postman :roll:
Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Yeboah » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:10 am

Mustafaster wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:Gimme the link and I'll tell ya.


It's the part near the beginning that has been translated thus:

“One other point I would like to talk about is that I’m going to make it easier for the investigation of the league.

“I’m going to give the information it needs and I assume the fact that my behaviour is heard from the most extreme position.

“In a few words I can tell you we observed all the rivals we played against and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them.


“My goal is to make the investigation easier and I don’t think that something is going to make worse what they are looking for than what I’m saying right now."

The bit in bold is what I suppose I mean. Has that been translated correctly?
On the YEP site it's translated as:

"One point I would like to talk about is that I am going to make it easy for the investigation of the league. I will give them what they need.
"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed. I observed all the rivals and we watched all the training sessions of the opponents before we played against them. My goal is to make the investigation easier."

"I assume the fact that my behaviour is observed." - Is he saying just they did it in full view of people at the training grounds? Or what?
"I observed al the rivals... all the training sessions of the opponents..." - surely we haven't watched ALL the sessions of every team, so that can't be right?

Here's the link of the intro - watch from about 4 mins:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/leed ... e-15687476

And did he even say what he meant to say?

Ok....
So, first of all, you can't take any word or phrase in isolation, especially with somebody like Bielsa.
It's hard to get an idea of his character if you don't speak the language. He's an intellectual, every word and phrase counts, and it builds to a coherent whole. In an issue of The Square Ball I made a comparison of Bielsa and Borges precisely because of this Argentinian intellectual aspect.He's not speaking off the cuff, it's a carefully prepared statement.

Personally I'd never dream of doing a spontaneous live simultaneous translation of anything like that. If you have a written, prepared statement you get a bloody good look at it beforehand.
But we are where we are.

The translator is doing a decent enough job until we hit the point immediately before Bielsa says he's observed everybody.
He uses the word " sinteticamente" and you can actually see the translator's eyes roll as he thinks Oh fuck! Quite. It's a translator's worst nightmare when someone chucks that kind of thing at you.
What does he do? He just lets it slide and hopes for the best. Understandable, in his position I'm doing the same.

This word is crucial to understanding the complete message, which is very subtle and nuanced.
Just before this point he says that he's going to make the investigation as easy as possible for the FL and assume the worst possible interpretation of his actions.
Here's where the word sinteticamente becomes crucial.
There's no real one-word translation for this. It means more or less the opposite of "analytically". Synthesis and analysis are opposed in Spanish and to a degree in English.
In simple terms: Analysis means looking at each case individually and breaking it down to constituent parts, synthesis means looking at things as a whole.

What Bielsa is saying here is that to facilitate the investigation the FL should assume that he's seen all the training sessions of all our opponents and not concentrate on isolated cases such as Derby.

He didn't say they had done it, he said that for the sake of argument the FL should assume he did.


Great insight, thanks

Makes it even more difficult to understand why he'd say something like that

The contra argument of course is that it's been widely reported as 'spied on everyone' and Leeds haven't rebutted it.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby Yeboah » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:12 am

thestraw wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:Being a nerd I’ve just Google mapped all 11 training grounds and I can’t see a single one which cannot be reasonably well seen from public roads or footpaths adjacent.

This is really interesting to hear - if you can watch them train from the public road/property I cant see how they have too many complaints really - the EFL should be telling them that they cant prevent this from happening and its up to the clubs to make changes to the training grounds to prevent it and make it more difficult for people watching/spying on their training sessions; whilst at the same time telling them to fcuk off with their demands in their letter to their buddy Shauney from 2018 :wink:


Legalities aside, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should..... competitively.

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OWETB
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:05 am
Location: Eating pig with the Prophet Mohammed

Re: Watchers In The Woods v Cunty Frank's Derby Lampstands CK

Postby OWETB » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:13 am

You should send that explanation to the FL & FA musta.


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