YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Vampire » Mon May 06, 2019 7:19 am

Blackwhite wrote:When I tune into this place and am nodding my head in almost total agreement with Reality, you know the person on the other end must be the one who is outnumbered.


FTFY.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Ponte
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 am
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Ponte » Mon May 06, 2019 8:09 am

Phil LUFC wrote:
Yeboah wrote:No issue with Bielsa, just not sure his record deserves the ‘love’ he gets. Football is a tangible success/failure business. He’s failed far more than he’s succeeded for someone lauded as a genius.

Have you seen us play this season? In the stadium I mean.

When we were discussing terms I'd have maybe said similar (but still very excited by going for someone with his reputation). As it is, you're very much wedded to this binary notion of success/failure, I can't be bothered going over that ground again but perhaps his great gift is to show people the game can be glorious without titles?

He's not about winning at all costs, he's not about becoming as rich as possible, he's about the process, the bigger picture, the beauty of the game. He's a beacon of integrity in a corrupt sport.

What he's done this season is remarkable, if we do go up it'll be because of his genius. If we fall short then we see what next season brings. I believe we'd be in the mix again if he stays. If he leaves I fear it's back to 14th.

:salute:
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metalsmurf
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:08 am
Location: Littleborough, Gtr Scumland

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby metalsmurf » Mon May 06, 2019 8:30 am

Ponte wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:
Yeboah wrote:No issue with Bielsa, just not sure his record deserves the ‘love’ he gets. Football is a tangible success/failure business. He’s failed far more than he’s succeeded for someone lauded as a genius.

Have you seen us play this season? In the stadium I mean.

When we were discussing terms I'd have maybe said similar (but still very excited by going for someone with his reputation). As it is, you're very much wedded to this binary notion of success/failure, I can't be bothered going over that ground again but perhaps his great gift is to show people the game can be glorious without titles?

He's not about winning at all costs, he's not about becoming as rich as possible, he's about the process, the bigger picture, the beauty of the game. He's a beacon of integrity in a corrupt sport.

What he's done this season is remarkable, if we do go up it'll be because of his genius. If we fall short then we see what next season brings. I believe we'd be in the mix again if he stays. If he leaves I fear it's back to 14th.

:salute:

Agreed Phil, it's become something I enjoy on a Saturday again rather than something I do cos season ticket.
Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.

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Devi
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:15 pm
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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Devi » Mon May 06, 2019 8:56 am

Phil LUFC wrote:He's not about winning at all costs, he's not about becoming as rich as possible, he's about the process, the bigger picture, the beauty of the game. He's a beacon of integrity in a corrupt sport.

What he's done this season is remarkable, if we do go up it'll be because of his genius. If we fall short then we see what next season brings. I believe we'd be in the mix again if he stays. If he leaves I fear it's back to 14th.


This.
I like it. What is it?

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 12:43 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:
Yeboah wrote:No issue with Bielsa, just not sure his record deserves the ‘love’ he gets. Football is a tangible success/failure business. He’s failed far more than he’s succeeded for someone lauded as a genius.

Have you seen us play this season? In the stadium I mean.

When we were discussing terms I'd have maybe said similar (but still very excited by going for someone with his reputation). As it is, you're very much wedded to this binary notion of success/failure, I can't be bothered going over that ground again but perhaps his great gift is to show people the game can be glorious without titles?

He's not about winning at all costs, he's not about becoming as rich as possible, he's about the process, the bigger picture, the beauty of the game. He's a beacon of integrity in a corrupt sport.

What he's done this season is remarkable, if we do go up it'll be because of his genius. If we fall short then we see what next season brings. I believe we'd be in the mix again if he stays. If he leaves I fear it's back to 14th.



Yes I have, they were awful.....

Professional sport is about tangible success, achievements, winning things.......if you can do that the ‘right’ way, brilliant, if not, winning has to be priority given the knock on affects in modern football, finance etc.

Having to explain something so fundamental is so ‘square ball’ .....

Beacon of integrity? After being fined for corrupt actions? Is that parody.?

He’s not the messiah......his record shows you that.

‘Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser’ - Vince Lombardi

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 pm

metalsmurf wrote:Agreed Phil, it's become something I enjoy on a Saturday again rather than something I do cos season ticket.


That’s great for you, suspect it’s a minority view.

Brentford at home next year will be a much bigger fixture than Arsenal or City... :roll: :lol:

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 12:49 pm

Mr Reality wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
Mr Reality wrote:Radrizzani is an owner who wasted 18 months and a lot of money on recruitment he is the last person to be making demands on a coach.

Also wonder how much the failure of eleven sports has impacted this season.

You sound like Richard keys.

Bielsa should have bought some players in January from his own pocket.


He’s the owner he should make demands.

Lufc accounts are there for all to see.... £11.8m in from shareholders and still a 4m loss. Eleven sports was a non-factor.

Bielsa didn’t want anymore players (bar James) ......he was wrong.


Have we got the accounts for this season?

Could you point me in the direction of them?

In recent years this club has wasted money buying and loaning 3/4 cheap players which has held back the club.

We don't know how much money was available in January but considering the fact the Kiko was brought in on a deal we needed manipulation and they were trying to get James on loan it would suggest the purse strings are tight.

So then there are a few options.

Buy cheap for the sake of it. (This has repeatedly failed in recent years)

Go for a different player other than James. (Given the time constraints not an easy option)

Go with what you have.


Completely agree that money was tight, but nothing to do with Eleven Sports......maybe more to do with the fact that we gave over 15% of the clubs turnover to a coaching team that thus far, haven’t got the job done.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Mr Reality wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
Mr Reality wrote:Easy to say professionalism should have come with different coaches or managers but we have seen in recent years that hasn't been the case. The opposite has been true players putting themselves above the team and letting the club down has happened far too often. This squad didn't respect others funny how there hasn't been any funny business this season.

Again you get what you pay for.


Just because recent coaches have been ‘poor’ doesn’t mean you need to pay £3m to instil discipline. They are 2 very different questions/scenarios.

No funny business bar Saiz downing tools?

Pontus being Pontus...?

Bamford acting

Alioski diving

I agree discipline has been better, but it’s not been anything you wouldn’t expect from a ‘normal’ team.


Saiz having family problems is not something bielsa is responsible for. You do realise his partner was having problems with her pregnancy.

Pontus has been far more disciplined this season. 16 and 13 yellows down to 7.

Bamford trying to get somebody sent off isn't a bad thing the fact he was shit at it is the problem.

Allioski goes down easily but that's not really poor discipline if anything that's trying to do something to help the team.

In recent years players have randomly headbutted opposition players and made stupid two footed challenges that's poor discipline which successive managers have had no idea how to get under control. Now that's gone.


Saiz was going anyway.....

Pontus is less busy, hence the cards situation, nothing to do with discipline.

Agree to disagree re PB, never right to cheat and try to get someone sent off.. what goes around, comes around.

Alioski cheats.....occasionally....again not right.

Mr Reality
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Mr Reality » Mon May 06, 2019 12:57 pm

They have literally got a mid table budget to finish 3rd.

From 13th to 3rd.

Coaching changes have done nothing. :lol:

Mr Reality
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Mr Reality » Mon May 06, 2019 1:01 pm

Every time somebody fouls an opponent they are cheating. Everytime you appeal for a throw that you know isn't yours it's cheating.

Where do you draw the line?

Agree to disagree re pontus.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 1:14 pm

Mr Reality wrote:They have literally got a mid table budget to finish 3rd.

From 13th to 3rd.

Coaching changes have done nothing. :lol:


No one lauding Chris Wilder as a coaching genius for doing more with less? His budget is even lower.

Never said coaching changes have done nothing, but he gets paid three times more than any other champ. manager.

If he doesn’t get them up, he’s been poor value for money. It’s an inescapable fact!

Chieftain626
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:56 pm
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Chieftain626 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:15 pm

Yeboah wrote:
metalsmurf wrote:Agreed Phil, it's become something I enjoy on a Saturday again rather than something I do cos season ticket.


That’s great for you, suspect it’s a minority view.

Brentford at home next year will be a much bigger fixture than Arsenal or City... :roll: :lol:



So glad i don't have you view on the football we have seen this year.

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Phil LUFC » Mon May 06, 2019 1:15 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:
Yeboah wrote:No issue with Bielsa, just not sure his record deserves the ‘love’ he gets. Football is a tangible success/failure business. He’s failed far more than he’s succeeded for someone lauded as a genius.

Have you seen us play this season? In the stadium I mean.

When we were discussing terms I'd have maybe said similar (but still very excited by going for someone with his reputation). As it is, you're very much wedded to this binary notion of success/failure, I can't be bothered going over that ground again but perhaps his great gift is to show people the game can be glorious without titles?

He's not about winning at all costs, he's not about becoming as rich as possible, he's about the process, the bigger picture, the beauty of the game. He's a beacon of integrity in a corrupt sport.

What he's done this season is remarkable, if we do go up it'll be because of his genius. If we fall short then we see what next season brings. I believe we'd be in the mix again if he stays. If he leaves I fear it's back to 14th.



Yes I have, they were awful.....

Professional sport is about tangible success, achievements, winning things.......if you can do that the ‘right’ way, brilliant, if not, winning has to be priority given the knock on affects in modern football, finance etc.

Having to explain something so fundamental is so ‘square ball’ .....

Beacon of integrity? After being fined for corrupt actions? Is that parody.?

He’s not the messiah......his record shows you that.

‘Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser’ - Vince Lombardi

Professional support is also about entertainment.
Gladiator, 2000 wrote:Proximo: I wasn't the best because I killed quickly. I was the best because the crowd loved me. Win the crowd. And you will win your freedom.
Maximus: I will win the crowd. I will give them something they have never seen before.

^About as relevant as your quote.

In a sport so heavily linked to the financial outlay (too many variables to be 100% fact but the general correlation between wage bill and league standings can't be coincidence), when you know you can't actually compete, where does your binary view leave you? Pack up and go home? The fact we're competitive is an achievement, the fact we're entertaining with it is brilliant.

The integrity thing is simple and not parody. It's not without irony though. Bielsa has been done with a £200k fine for not doing anything technically wrong. You can debate the morals, I'm not going to defend the actions, I think they're a little dubious to say the least - he's not the first, even in this country, there are many anecdotes of people outside dressing room doors/in the ceiling/in disguise and it's culturally acceptable where he's been before - what question do you even ask to find out its not the done thing?

You're right on one thing though, he's not the messiah and his record isn't brilliant. The question in that for me is more why he hasn't had a sniff of the top jobs rather than what he has/hasn't achieved in the jobs he has taken on. But again, money, we can't afford the best let alone what "the best" seemingly need to spend, we've instead got the guy who inspired some of today's very best. We've done a pretty decent impression of Man City this season to say we've spent about 1/100th of what they have.

What game(s) have you seen? We've had some fairly poor ones but not sure we've seen anything even close to awful (with large chunks of the last 15 years setting that benchmark)? It doesn't really matter, I have no expectation of shifting your viewpoint.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 1:18 pm

Mr Reality wrote:Every time somebody fouls an opponent they are cheating. Everytime you appeal for a throw that you know isn't yours it's cheating.

Where do you draw the line?

Agree to disagree re pontus.


Cheating has to be deliberate or pre-planned imo.

Draw the line...?

Taking over a game from the ref. when no need?

Letting forest score another goal when our equaliser was handball?

Missing the pen against QPR, when it wasn’t handball.?

Remember I’m not the one saying he’s morally untouchable, completely free of corruption, always does the right thing etc.

It’s a nonsense point of view when you look at what’s happened this year.

Chieftain626
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:56 pm
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Chieftain626 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Mr Reality wrote:They have literally got a mid table budget to finish 3rd.

From 13th to 3rd.

Coaching changes have done nothing. :lol:


No one lauding Chris Wilder as a coaching genius for doing more with less? His budget is even lower.

Never said coaching changes have done nothing, but he gets paid three times more than any other champ. manager.

If he doesn’t get them up, he’s been poor value for money. It’s an inescapable fact!


For a a coach to come in a get a team from 13th to 3rd in one season is an achievement not a failure. Wilder has been a Sheffield for years and has a group of players he put together. the players were already here when the coach was here. you can only piss with the cock you've got..

One year to get a team promoted is a huge ask.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 1:20 pm

Chieftain626 wrote:
Yeboah wrote:
metalsmurf wrote:Agreed Phil, it's become something I enjoy on a Saturday again rather than something I do cos season ticket.


That’s great for you, suspect it’s a minority view.

Brentford at home next year will be a much bigger fixture than Arsenal or City... :roll: :lol:



So glad i don't have you view on the football we have seen this year.



Me too, the championship is awful.

Chieftain626
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:56 pm
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Chieftain626 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:23 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Me too, the championship is awful.


Why bother then?

Just wait till we get promoted if that ever happens. Then you can tell everyone your a Leeds fan. In the time being just watch premier league games like Burnley Vs Bournemouth.

Mr Reality
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Mr Reality » Mon May 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Mr Reality wrote:Every time somebody fouls an opponent they are cheating. Everytime you appeal for a throw that you know isn't yours it's cheating.

Where do you draw the line?

Agree to disagree re pontus.


Cheating has to be deliberate or pre-planned imo.

Draw the line...?

Taking over a game from the ref. when no need?

Letting forest score another goal when our equaliser was handball?

Missing the pen against QPR, when it wasn’t handball.?

Remember I’m not the one saying he’s morally untouchable, completely free of corruption, always does the right thing etc.

It’s a nonsense point of view when you look at what’s happened this year.


Cheating is breaking the rules.


You seem to be arguing against something I haven't even said.

I don't agree with the situation against villa. Personally think he wanted to avoid negative publicity after the situation earlier in the season.

Don't see the relevance of the other points.

Mr Reality
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Mr Reality » Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Yeboah wrote:
Mr Reality wrote:They have literally got a mid table budget to finish 3rd.

From 13th to 3rd.

Coaching changes have done nothing. :lol:


No one lauding Chris Wilder as a coaching genius for doing more with less? His budget is even lower.

Never said coaching changes have done nothing, but he gets paid three times more than any other champ. manager.

If he doesn’t get them up, he’s been poor value for money. It’s an inescapable fact!


I'm sure shef United supporters are lauding wilder. I was actually very impressed with him but he let himself down with comments after they got promoted.

Disagree about the value for money.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Postby Yeboah » Mon May 06, 2019 1:36 pm

@phil

My view will shift with achievement (or not) , again its very binary ...... win or lose.

Your point re Maximus backs my point in that he fought as he did and he won...(doing it the right way) , if he’d fought well and being slain first time out, you wouldn’t be talking about him now.

Not sure comparing fighting to the best sports coach that’s ever lived is relevant anyway, but each to their own.


Your opinion on MB doing nothing wrong is fine, but for me the facts speak otherwise. And whilst yours might be a popular view amongst Lufc fans, in football more broadly it would be the minority position. If you were allowed to watch other teams sessions, you wouldn’t need to do it from a path outside the ground!

Competitive wise, Wilder has done more with less, not sure with Farke.

He hasn’t had top jobs because he doesn’t win things, it’s not rocket science. Even West Ham turned him down a while back.

We could afford more as a club if we weren’t paying the manager so much!


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