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Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:47 pm
by Quiffy
Yeboah wrote:There is potentially a better managed risk approach using the academy. Which then makes the ridiculous investment in Bielsa look....well, even more ridiculous!


surely it makes the bielsa appointment more sensible. we've got some good raw ingredients we need a top chef to make the most of them. bielsa's an investment in the current resources.

as an aside i was wondering what the total costs of the academy have been over the last 20 years compared to the total revenues it has created. i would imagine when you add the fees received for kewell, woodgate, milner, lennon, delph, cook, byram et al it's a tidy little profit. having bielsa coaching this last year will inflate the values of clarke, phillips etc more than enough to cover his additional £2 wages. (presuming you'd want a decent manager who may cost £1m a year)

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:09 pm
by Yeboah
thestraw wrote:
Yeboah wrote:If we end up in admin or in L1 in the next 24 months i will eat my hat.

Ok, I hope so too...

How do you think it happens then?

Do you dispute the numbers or is promotion almost certain?


I don’t dispute the figures as they are open to see, but we can afford those losses for now without the Club going under like you claim it will. That isn’t even a possibility in the short or medium term.

What I do strongly dispute is the figures being quoted for Bielsa as £6m; as well as the risk you claim it is by handing one of the best coaches in world football another contract for 12 months, that is just an absolute bonkers statement.



Afford it on what basis?

It only happens for one of 2 reasons

- shareholders absorb losses
- bank happy with debt on overdraft or similar

Either of those 2 things could easily change. At which point......well anything could happen.

Saying a champ. Club with a £45m turnover can afford to lose £20-£25m a year is more bonkers than I could ever dream of posting!

£6m for Bielsa includes all his coaching team.

If he was one of the best coaches in world football, at 63 he would:

- have won more
- coached in EPL
- not be at LUFC

His record is what it is....there is nothing hidden.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:12 pm
by Yeboah
Quiffy wrote:
Yeboah wrote:There is potentially a better managed risk approach using the academy. Which then makes the ridiculous investment in Bielsa look....well, even more ridiculous!


surely it makes the bielsa appointment more sensible. we've got some good raw ingredients we need a top chef to make the most of them. bielsa's an investment in the current resources.

as an aside i was wondering what the total costs of the academy have been over the last 20 years compared to the total revenues it has created. i would imagine when you add the fees received for kewell, woodgate, milner, lennon, delph, cook, byram et al it's a tidy little profit. having bielsa coaching this last year will inflate the values of clarke, phillips etc more than enough to cover his additional £2 wages. (presuming you'd want a decent manager who may cost £1m a year)


Corberan pre dates Bielsa doesn’t he....?

Academy is great undoubtedly, all the players would be worth more automatically if we were EPL.

Who’s to say a different manager wouldn’t do more with the academy resources?

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:17 pm
by Blackwhite
Just for a laugh: apart from Colin, who specifically would you prefer as manager Yeboah?

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:20 pm
by kennyb41
Yeboah wrote:Who’s to say a different manager wouldn’t do more with the academy resources?


Ermm, Past history? Fck me we've tried enough have we not over the last few years?

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:27 pm
by jackos
Yeboah wrote:
Afford it on what basis?

It only happens for one of 2 reasons

- shareholders absorb losses
- bank happy with debt on overdraft or similar

Either of those 2 things could easily change. At which point......well anything could happen.

Saying a champ. Club with a £45m turnover can afford to lose £20-£25m a year is more bonkers than I could ever dream of posting!

£6m for Bielsa includes all his coaching team.

If he was one of the best coaches in world football, at 63 he would:

- have won more
- coached in EPL
- not be at LUFC

His record is what it is....there is nothing hidden.


We haven't lost 20M quid a year. Not yet. We lost <5M last season. We have to wait and see what the loss is this season. EFL rules allow the club to loose 36M over three seasons if the losses are covered by the owner, and that does not include investment in facilities.

Bielsa turned Phillips into a 15M quid player, even if him and his team cost us 6M a season, that alone covers their wages. Added to that we increased our attendances, increase commercial income, went from a club people hadn't forgotten to a club that's in the news every week across the globe, mainly for the right reasons, folks love the football we play.

We're never going to agree, but in a world where Bamford costs us well over 10M over 4 seasons Bielsa and his team are worth 6M a season imho.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:34 pm
by Oheddieeddie
Bielsa and team £3 million is what Hay has said repeatedly

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:44 pm
by jackos
Oheddieeddie wrote:Bielsa and team £3 million is what Hay has said repeatedly


Thats what I thought, but when Hay was asked he suggested 3M might be net, and that 6M might be gross including pension, taxes etc. We discussed it earlier in the thread. Not 100% clear really.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:49 pm
by Quiffy
Yeboah wrote:
Who’s to say a different manager wouldn’t do more with the academy resources?

well, experience of a load of managers recently, blackwell to heckingbottom, suggests only redfearn was as willing to push the academy as much as bielsa, it's just redders' reputation wasn't anywhere near bielsa's, which will add to the players' value.

fair point about carlos, and therefore orta, i remember loving watching the u23's at the end of last season, but the chances these lads have had in the first team because of bielsa will only add to their value.

the question still remains, who would you rather have? just pointing out the cost of bielsa as a problem suggests there is a better option out there without any problems. i'd love to know who that is. as far as i can see there are drawbacks to every appointment, with marcelo there's just far more positives.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:55 pm
by moscowhite
jackos wrote:
Oheddieeddie wrote:Bielsa and team £3 million is what Hay has said repeatedly


Thats what I thought, but when Hay was asked he suggested 3M might be net, and that 6M might be gross including pension, taxes etc. We discussed it earlier in the thread. Not 100% clear really.


That was Phil's attempt to explain where people might have plucked the £6m figure from — he thought, maybe they're adding on pensions and taxes.

The only figure that has come from the club is £3m a year for Bielsa and all his staff. That figure might be a lie. But any other figures are, to whatever degree, guesses.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:05 pm
by jackos
moscowhite wrote:The only figure that has come from the club is £3m a year for Bielsa and all his staff. That figure might be a lie. But any other figures are, to whatever degree, guesses.


Yes. Sure, you're correct. I just dont think it matters. What did Cellinos treatment of his staff cost us? How many millions did Orta and Radz waste on transfers their first season at the club? How many millions did/are players signed be previous managers cost us, or cost us to get rid of? Bloody hell, we're probably still paying Robbie Fowler. How many millions did GFH take in "management fees'? Bate's/Cellino's/GFH neglect of TA , or failure to buy TA back? Bates courts cases? I couldn't care less what Bielsa is on, as long as the club think he's worth it and they can afford it. For the first time in, how long? 16 years? We have a manager, owner, and leadership I trust to do their best for the club. Bielsa is worth it. Whatever 'it' might be.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:25 pm
by Phil LUFC
Yeboah wrote:
moscowhite wrote:If the Qataris come in we could still not win promotion despite spending much more, like Derby for the last however many seasons, meaning we would lose even more money each season, building up even larger debts, that the Qataris could decide to stop underwriting at any point, sending the club into admin.

See also: anybody owning any club in the Football League spending any amount.

Or they could get us promoted. But then Radrizzani and Bielsa might do that while building up substantially less debt risk than spending gas millions on players. Who knows? The unpredictability of football is part of its appeal.

The only guaranteed way to guard against scenarios that end in admin is to just close the club down now. Won't lose money then.


Yep, understand the argument.

I think it is generally believed that money talks and success chance is enhanced by money availability. Not always of course but as a ‘most probable’ outcome.

There is potentially a better managed risk approach using the academy. Which then makes the ridiculous investment in Bielsa look....well, even more ridiculous!

I think the widely accepted position is: Bielsa and his full team collectively cost £3m per season. I don't think that's ridiculous.

But...

There's a very strong argument that using the academy is exactly the plan. We got £8m for Vieira last season, we could choose to cash in on Phillips and Clarke for at least £20m, potentially much more if Clarke is genuinely interesting spurs for £15m. This time next summer you could probably add Shackleton and likely someone else. We'll also turn smaller profits from players like Ekuban.

We have a number of other players worth at least £5m in today's market.

Let's say we end next season in the championship, your suggested £50m in debt and Radz has had enough. A handful of player sales negates half of it easily.

Your man Bielsa has likely added £20m to the value of the squad he inherited - he's paid for himself and his staff (£6m over 2 seasons) within Phillips value increase alone.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:59 pm
by welshwhite
Bielsa alone is on £6m a season, his staff are not included in that figure.
It's a lot of money for just one man to earn but the club were happy to pay it.

The 49ers came in because Bielsa was coach, the money they gave was soley intended to pay for his two year stint here.

He gave half of his first seasons wages to his old club, fair play to the money grabbing fucker :thumbl:

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:19 pm
by AndyPaul
Pay him 60 million. I've not enjoyed a season more since we were in the champions league. Looking forward to next season now.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:56 pm
by LSD&2Es
welshwhite wrote:Bielsa alone is on £6m a season, his staff are not included in that figure.
It's a lot of money for just one man to earn but the club were happy to pay it.

The 49ers came in because Bielsa was coach, the money they gave was soley intended to pay for his two year stint here.

He gave half of his first seasons wages to his old club, fair play to the money grabbing fucker :thumbl:



That's bollocks, he's on £60m a season, everyone knows it, its plain for everyone to see. It's all bloody Victor's fault, if he hadn't come over here and taken Gwyns's job, everything would be great!

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:41 pm
by Blackwhite
Blackwhite wrote:Just for a laugh: apart from Colin, who specifically would you prefer as manager Yeboah?

Still waiting.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:56 pm
by Tycipa
LSD&2Es wrote:
welshwhite wrote:Bielsa alone is on £6m a season, his staff are not included in that figure.
It's a lot of money for just one man to earn but the club were happy to pay it.

The 49ers came in because Bielsa was coach, the money they gave was soley intended to pay for his two year stint here.

He gave half of his first seasons wages to his old club, fair play to the money grabbing fucker :thumbl:



That's bollocks, he's on £60m a season, everyone knows it, its plain for everyone to see. It's all bloody Victor's fault, if he hadn't come over here and taken Gwyns's job, everything would be great!

and he lives in a box in t’middle of t’road the lucky bastard.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:00 pm
by eric olthwaite
AndyPaul wrote:Pay him 60 million. I've not enjoyed a season more since we were in the champions league. Looking forward to next season now.


No. £600m wouldn’t be half enough.

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:35 am
by welshwhite
LSD&2Es wrote:
welshwhite wrote:Bielsa alone is on £6m a season, his staff are not included in that figure.
It's a lot of money for just one man to earn but the club were happy to pay it.

The 49ers came in because Bielsa was coach, the money they gave was soley intended to pay for his two year stint here.

He gave half of his first seasons wages to his old club, fair play to the money grabbing fucker :thumbl:



That's bollocks, he's on £60m a season, everyone knows it, its plain for everyone to see. It's all bloody Victor's fault, if he hadn't come over here and taken Gwyns's job, everything would be great!


Here's a few signings Williams overseen/discovered and their resale value made a very hefty profit indeed, they also went on to play at a high level.
One of them a Premiership title winner.

Beckford
Snodgrass
Becchio
Gradel
Schmeichel
McCormack
Bradley Johnson.

It's now your turn to give me a list of players Mr. Orta has signed in his time here that will give us a few quid profit should we sell them, or have already sold for a profit.
What little diamonds has he dug up for us?

Even my mate Mr. Cellino was able to make a 12 million quid profit out of the sale of Chris Wood. He bought him for 3m and he was sold for 15m :salute:

Re: YES that Mad Bastard Bielsa's brand of football IS good enough for Leeds United

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:51 am
by kennyb41
jackos wrote:
moscowhite wrote:The only figure that has come from the club is £3m a year for Bielsa and all his staff. That figure might be a lie. But any other figures are, to whatever degree, guesses.


Yes. Sure, you're correct. I just dont think it matters. What did Cellinos treatment of his staff cost us? How many millions did Orta and Radz waste on transfers their first season at the club? How many millions did/are players signed be previous managers cost us, or cost us to get rid of? Bloody hell, we're probably still paying Robbie Fowler. How many millions did GFH take in "management fees'? Bate's/Cellino's/GFH neglect of TA , or failure to buy TA back? Bates courts cases? I couldn't care less what Bielsa is on, as long as the club think he's worth it and they can afford it. For the first time in, how long? 16 years? We have a manager, owner, and leadership I trust to do their best for the club. Bielsa is worth it. Whatever 'it' might be.


Fcking spot on :thumbl: