Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

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Professor Weeto
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:37 am

Can’t see him escaping a ban if he said what is reported - it pretty clearly does contravene the rules, however benignly. I would expect him to get the minimum (6 game?) ban unless there’s more to it, however.

Crucially, I think I can live with supporting the player once he returns if it is more of a mix-up than deliberate abuse. The Pablo/Kiko song has had a real taint for me since the allegation arose.

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Tommy
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Tommy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:48 am

Phil LUFC wrote:I think I've said before but I can see some of these traps being things I fall into in my latter years and it'll be absolutely no different to the casual racism dropped by many a pensioner in recent years. Times change, its not always possible to move with them, I already find it too easy to dismiss gender identification as a thing and am ignorant to the specifics.

One of the many gifts I've been granted by the volunteering stuff I've been doing over the past few years is the lesson that it's so much better and easier for all concerned if whenever you are corrected on something pertinent to identity, you just say okay and make a mental note to try to accommodate the request in the future. The temptation is to become defensive because chances are you did not mean it in a derogatory or disrespectful manner but that's essentially irrelevant. At the end of the day, making a small adjustment to the way we talk is an incredibly minor concession and one worth making if it makes otherwise marginalised people feel more comfortable/accepted.

Phil LUFC wrote:As you say, it does seem to be a personal level thing, I'd always understood 'person of colour' or similar to be a no go area with "black" the PC term, based mainly on friends wearing that whole "...and you have the cheek to call me coloured" t-shirt but I know people who've been advised the exact opposite so like you I will go to great lengths to avoid mentioning it at all.

'Person of Colour' was definitely well meaning and I used it for years until it dawned on me that it basically perpetuates the binary of white/non-white, which is obviously an absurd and counterproductive concept. I dunno what it's been replaced with, perhaps we're moving away from these catch-all terms that emphasise the very thing we're trying to escape?

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the flying pig
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby the flying pig » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:06 am

i find myself hoping it's clear cut - either something heinous we sack him for, or something totally that's near enough nowt, that he's found not guilty of. don't want to be in a suarez situation of the club/fans defending something highly dubious.

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Tommy
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Tommy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:11 am

My guess is it'll end up being something difficult to explicitly prove and everyone will largely forget about it by the time his ban has finished.

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Professor Weeto
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:17 am

the flying pig wrote:i find myself hoping it's clear cut - either something heinous we sack him for, or something totally that's near enough nowt, that he's found not guilty of. don't want to be in a suarez situation of the club/fans defending something highly dubious.


Yeah, agreed. You can already see the first slithers of the Suarez situation on social media. I reckon he's getting a ban either way but I hope it's more of Kiko being a bit of a wally/insensitive than anything more nefarious.

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Devi
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Devi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:30 am

I somehow don't see Kiko being in the Di Canio mould, and as such, am prepared to take his side - that it was (as is being suggested) a non-intentional misuse of an otherwise offensive word.

But he's Leeds, and it's in the news. So the book, and several further volumes will be thrown at him. Get warm, Meslier. You're up.
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dirty leeds
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:33 am

Interesting what Tommy and Phil are saying.
Looking back at how my own family and friends used to talk about anyone who wasn't white/Yorkshire-born/nominally protestant/local back in the 1960s/1970s, things wuz obviously very different. My mum, a very gentle soul not given to extremes of any kind, once described someone as a 'darkie', using the word purely as descriptive. [It was a bloke she actually liked - she was just trying to point him out to someone.] It felt very old fashioned to me as a teenager into soul music, growing up hearing James Brown saying [loud] he was 'black' and proud.
From about 14 years old, my view of African-Americans was that they were some incredibly talented and wonderful people to have created all this amazing art I loved, in the face of the obstacles the whites had put in their way for so long [and were still doing so]. So when JB and Curtis Mayfield and Gil Scott-Heron talked about 'black' folks I was only thinking of being black as positive thing. Logically, then, for me to say, 'That black guy over there' [when maybe he was the only one in amongst a bunch of white people], was for me never a negative thing. In the seventies that made me an exception - and, as usual, those around me who wanted call people 'nigger' and 'black bastard' basically never actually knew any black people [or hardly any], because there were virtually none in York at that time. There were no black kids at our school. At all. There was one British-Indian guy. At my brother's school there was one black lad.

Since doing my job, which as some of you know brings me into contact with Afro-Caribbean and African-American people every day of the week [wildlife lovers everywhere these days], they all still routinely talk about 'black' music and 'black' people, whether they're young or old, and they expect me to use the same word. I dunno, maybe that's because they know that after 30-odd years of doing what I do, I'm likely to be on the inside of the tent always pissing out?

So, I suppose, if Kiko said, in haste, 'Mark the black guy on the post', I'm unlikely to see racism in it as a first thought. But I'm not Leko. Or Kiko, come to that. Of course, after a teenage spent hero-worshipping African-American musicians, I did grow up and realise that - just like whites and every fucker else - some black guys can also be not very nice and/or thick, and that things are not actually always as perceived by any particular party. It's possible that Kiko is a racist - I don't know him at all - and it's also possible that Leko is assuming actual racist intent in something that had none in Kiko's mind.

Of course, if Kiko has been racist I'd be happy for him to be sacked. On the other hand, I don't have a lot of confidence in the football authorities to get this right [given the level of fines for less important stuff, like Spygate, when compared to actual obvious racism]. Guess we'll soon see.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:34 am

Professor Weeto wrote:
the flying pig wrote:i find myself hoping it's clear cut - either something heinous we sack him for, or something totally that's near enough nowt, that he's found not guilty of. don't want to be in a suarez situation of the club/fans defending something highly dubious.


Yeah, agreed. You can already see the first slithers of the Suarez situation on social media. I reckon he's getting a ban either way but I hope it's more of Kiko being a bit of a wally/insensitive than anything more nefarious.


Yeah, this.

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Professor Weeto
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 am

The other thing I'd add is that I think it's perfectly possible to commit a racist act unintentionally. I'd hope, if found guilty, that Kiko will show some contrition even if he maintains that he was misunderstood. We live in a racist world, and it's important to listen to the voices of those claiming oppression even when you don't instinctively recognise the problem.

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Devi
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Devi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:11 am

GPWM
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Phil LUFC
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Phil LUFC » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:49 am

Professor Weeto wrote:The other thing I'd add is that I think it's perfectly possible to commit a racist act unintentionally. I'd hope, if found guilty, that Kiko will show some contrition even if he maintains that he was misunderstood. We live in a racist world, and it's important to listen to the voices of those claiming oppression even when you don't instinctively recognise the problem.

Yep. This.

Defining a racist act is pretty fucking difficult, as this thread shows - throwing bananas/making money noises is plainly racist. Stating a fact about skin colour isn't racist in my view but I can happily accept that it might be in someone elses. Tommy's advice is spot on, accept it could be taken differently to intended, learn from it.

6+ games for a misunderstanding feels fucking harsh though.

Whatever the end result I'd like to see specifics published - what he's accused of saying, what he says he actually said, what the FA believe... Etc. It needs to be clear the while football world, including grass roots/youth football where the lines are being drawn.

Unfortunately, we all know those details will be kept confidential and then social media will argue the extremes with no middle ground as per usual.

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Tommy
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Tommy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:08 pm

dirty leeds wrote:Of course, if Kiko has been racist I'd be happy for him to be sacked.

I'm quite surprised to see how often this is being mentioned because it never occurred to me that this would be an outcome (and I don't think it will be). Unless there is a recording of him explicitly racially abusing Leko (which I don't think there is), I doubt we'll ever know what was said. The statement by the club said that Kiko vehemently denied any wrongdoing and I'd expect him to stick with that story and the club to back him for a plethora of reasons (some combination of they believe him, they feel obligated to do so and have a business reason for doing so). I expect he will serve his ban and come back into the fold still denying any wrongdoing and most fans will give him the benefit of the doubt.

This whole affair also begs some other questions such as can someone use the language of racism but not actually be a racist (I think yes but with lots of caveats) and should they always lose their job if they are found to have done so (I think it varies on a case by case basis but that's a much longer conversation on the nature of retributive versus restorative/transformative justice).

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Professor Weeto
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:24 pm

Tommy wrote:This whole affair also begs some other questions such as can someone use the language of racism but not actually be a racist (I think yes but with lots of caveats) and should they always lose their job if they are found to have done so (I think it varies on a case by case basis but that's a much longer conversation on the nature of retributive versus restorative/transformative justice).


I think the point (as I see it, anyway) is that actions and attitudes are racist, not people. This is not to absolve anyone of blame, and obviously it's accurate to describe certain people as racist when they have done racist things, but it's not some immutable facet of a person that never changes. People can (and frequently do) become more racist, or less racist, as they get older. Often the "more racist" part develops as the result of some perceived injustice or "PC gone mad" incident, so hopefully Kiko will take any punishment that may be meted out with good grace and accept that it shouldn't be the likes of him who sets the boundaries here.

Whether it should be the FA is another matter entirely, but I'm actually fairly comfortable with a low bar being set for what's considered "racist". Everyone should know the rules - they are quite clear in this case. If you break them by accident that's on you; same as a team might be punished for accidentally fielding an illegible player, for example. The threat of punishment is there to discourage genuine attempts at rule-breaking.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Summat I just saw on Waccoe - apparently The Sun reckon that the ref heard what was said and reported it to the FA "immediately."

Two things:
1 - What they really mean is at the end of the match, not immediately.
and
2 - Why did he not send Kiko off immediately if he heard him say a racist thing?

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LSD&2Es
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby LSD&2Es » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:59 pm

Surely if it was that bad the offended player and his team mates would have reacted more at the time? I didn't see anything during the game that suggested anything said caused a flash point that you'd expect from such abuse, especially given the current focus on racism.
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Bobbycollins
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Bobbycollins » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:59 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:
Professor Weeto wrote:The other thing I'd add is that I think it's perfectly possible to commit a racist act unintentionally. I'd hope, if found guilty, that Kiko will show some contrition even if he maintains that he was misunderstood. We live in a racist world, and it's important to listen to the voices of those claiming oppression even when you don't instinctively recognise the problem.



Whatever the end result I'd like to see specifics published - what he's accused of saying, what he says he actually said, what the FA believe... Etc. It needs to be clear the while football world, including grass roots/youth football where the lines are being drawn.

Unfortunately, we all know those details will be kept confidential and then social media will argue the extremes with no middle ground as per usual.


The FA publish written reasons for suspensions, e.g. in the Forestieri case, http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-gov ... en-reasons.
According to the FA the charge against Kiko is an "Aggravated Breach" in that the alleged comments made reference to race and/or color and/or ethnic origin, which is fair enough. As an aside, in the written reasons in the Forestieri case, Rule E(2) is shown as also including "nationality", which makes the rule appear too all-embracing.

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Professor Weeto
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:19 pm

LSD&2Es wrote:Surely if it was that bad the offended player and his team mates would have reacted more at the time? I didn't see anything during the game that suggested anything said caused a flash point that you'd expect from such abuse, especially given the current focus on racism.


I didn’t notice anything either but the game wasn’t on Sky, was it? If so there won’t have been the plethora of cameras we tend to see. I do remember some kind of flare-up being briefly mentioned on the Square Ball post-match podcast.

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MightyWhite
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby MightyWhite » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Bobbycollins wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:
Professor Weeto wrote:The other thing I'd add is that I think it's perfectly possible to commit a racist act unintentionally. I'd hope, if found guilty, that Kiko will show some contrition even if he maintains that he was misunderstood. We live in a racist world, and it's important to listen to the voices of those claiming oppression even when you don't instinctively recognise the problem.



Whatever the end result I'd like to see specifics published - what he's accused of saying, what he says he actually said, what the FA believe... Etc. It needs to be clear the while football world, including grass roots/youth football where the lines are being drawn.

Unfortunately, we all know those details will be kept confidential and then social media will argue the extremes with no middle ground as per usual.


The FA publish written reasons for suspensions, e.g. in the Forestieri case, http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-gov ... en-reasons.
According to the FA the charge against Kiko is an "Aggravated Breach" in that the alleged comments made reference to race and/or color and/or ethnic origin, which is fair enough. As an aside, in the written reasons in the Forestieri case, Rule E(2) is shown as also including "nationality", which makes the rule appear too all-embracing.


The Equality Act bundles nationality, colour, ethnic origins, caste etc under its definition of race discrimination so I would suggest the FA have no choice but to follow
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Tommy
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby Tommy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:51 pm

If the ref's heard it too, he's fucked.

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dirty leeds
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Re: Trialists, Transfers & Speculation

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Must admit, if it were me shouting out instructions to the defenders at a corner, I might say, 'Watch the big fellah at the back' or 'Who's got this guy?' [while pointing]. I don't think I'd ever say, 'Coops, take the black guy'. Even if Leko was their only black player - which of course he isn't - it still wouldn't occur to me.


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