Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Tommy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:05 pm

I don't think it even needs to be a cross. He literally just needs other players to give him the ball just outside the box, to feet or at head height. If we had Saiz, Pablo and one other (doesn't really matter who, they all have strengths and weakensses) playing behind him his lack of mobility wouldn't be as much of an issue and they would draw defenders off him. I really think a Number 10 or support striker would suit him more than being stuck up there on his own.

Yeboah
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 am

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Yeboah » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:11 pm

Yeah playing 2 up front, especially at home has to be a better way to go.

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Quiffy
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:56 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Quiffy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:19 pm

Tommy wrote:I don't think it even needs to be a cross. He literally just needs other players to give him the ball just outside the box, to feet or at head height. If we had Saiz, Pablo and one other (doesn't really matter who, they all have strengths and weakensses) playing behind him his lack of mobility wouldn't be as much of an issue and they would draw defenders off him. I really think a Number 10 or support striker would suit him more than being stuck up there on his own.

agree with this, he's shown he's a very good player for this level over the last few games, we need to play to our strengths and use him better. i think the attempt to play roofe nearer him was plan A regards this, it's just other things went wrong in the team.

the other day, against the blunts, one possible criticism was that he was dropping too deep too often, just trying to get involved, which if nothing else shows he's not a natural target man/battering ram type. if he had saiz just behind him i don't think he'd feel the need to drop so deep all the time and would keep in the areas where he's the most dangerous. fingers crossed the way forshaw plays would mean saiz wouldn't drop too deep either as we have someone who can stand up for themselves in the middle and move it forward, so i'd like to think we could do the 4-4-1-1 i suggested, which has possibly our strongest 11 on the pitch.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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Tommy
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Tommy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:47 pm

Yeboah wrote:Yeah playing 2 up front, especially at home has to be a better way to go.

I don't think 442 suits our current squad because it likely involves dropping arguably our two best players - Pablo and Saiz. Saturday was the latest example of how daft it is not to field Pablo Hernandez whilst he's still with us and obviously Saiz has been our main creative outlet this season.

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Quiffy
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Quiffy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:04 pm

Tommy wrote:[how daft it is not to field Pablo Hernandez whilst he's still with us and obviously Saiz has been our main creative outlet this season.

'twas a thing of cheer to me to hear all the leeds fans singing pablo's name when roofey was down with his head injury with pablo still on the bench, a bit tough on roofey, but them lot know their shit.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.

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welshwhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby welshwhite » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:16 pm

As far as formations are concerned, lets give the players a little credit, a professional can adapt to any style. They've been playing allsorts since the age of ten...They even change formation half way through a game.

If a player can't play in a certain type of formation then I'll eat my fucking shoes. I'm not talking physically, I mean we've fucked up almost every game this season by playing one up front.

How the fuck can that work by having Roofe or Lasogga up top on their own? That little ploy has overworked the rest of the team all season...The ball goes up front and gets pinged back straight away.



In a way I'm glad we have PH here....no more fucking silly football. (with our current squad).

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Phil LUFC » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:28 pm

I thought Sheff Utd showed us the way earlier in the season and nothing I saw yesterday to change my mind.

I'm a big fan of their 352 which pretty much involves wingers rather than full backs. I'd like to see be a little cautious with it at first with Dallas or De Bock with Alioski the other side (Penners, Pontus, Berardi the back 3) but I'd honestly not be too worried by Pablo on the left given Berardi can go to full back and Forshaw into the back line as and when necessary. The trick of course is to successfully play on the front foot at all times.

Forshaw + an other sitting deep (Vieira off he's fully fit, Phillips my preference of the other 2), Saiz behind Lasogga and 1 from Ekuban, Roofe or Roberts.

Son of Leeds
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Son of Leeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:58 am

I thought Sheff Utd showed us the way earlier in the season and nothing I saw yesterday to change my mind.

I'm a big fan of their 352 which pretty much involves wingers rather than full backs. I'd like to see be a little cautious with it at first with Dallas or De Bock with Alioski the other side (Penners, Pontus, Berardi the back 3) but I'd honestly not be too worried by Pablo on the left given Berardi can go to full back and Forshaw into the back line as and when necessary. The trick of course is to successfully play on the front foot at all times.

Forshaw + an other sitting deep (Vieira off he's fully fit, Phillips my preference of the other 2), Saiz behind Lasogga and 1 from Ekuban, Roofe or Roberts.


Yes, but you cant just do it. Berardi central defender?
Leeds United is ruining my life.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby dirty leeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:13 am

As with all formations, there are weaknesses whatever way you set up. The old 3-5-2 system people used to play in the late eighties and early nineties was abandoned by most because it left you vulnerable down the wings. All teams had to do was exploit the space left by your marauding wingbacks and you were fucked. I remember seeing it clearly demonstrated at Spurs once, not long after we had put Danny Mills in at RB and had our FBs bombing forward in a 3-5-2. In the first half Spurs just fired it behind Danny, put the crosses in and Les Ferdinand looked like he'd score all day. Happily we were only one down at H-T and switched to 4-4-2 second half, and won 2-1 [cracking free kick from Harte].
So, to play it properly and not get caught out by teams doubling up down your wings, the left and right CBs need to be able to shift across and play LB or RB when the need arises, which, in turn means the other guys have to shift across too, and someone - maybe the other wingback, maybe one of the defensive MFs, has to fill in as FB on the other side. Depends on shape of the attack. Occasionally it might be better they take up an emergency CB role if the other CB has been left stranded on the other touchline. To play it right you have to be the proverbial well-oiled machine. If you play it clunkily, you can be found out leaving spaces.
Sheff Utd have been doing their 3-5-2 [sometimes 3-4-3] thing all season and it's worked OK, especially at the start, but now teams are adjusting to them and they don't look as good as they did when they played Wednesday at Hillsborough.
For me, the trouble with us switching to 3-5-2 so as to support Lasogga's strengths is that we'll be doing it mid-season and on-the-hoof. It'll probably take a while to get right. You could take the view that this season is over anyway and so using up what's left of it to switch playing pattern is a worthwhile thing to do. On the other hand, wins build confidence and The Heck is probably more concerned with doing that between now and May, so he'll likely go with whatever he thinks is the path of least resistance, given the players at his disposal.
I like 3-5-2, but it has to be done right.

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Phil LUFC
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Phil LUFC » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:49 pm

Son of Leeds: Earlier in the season I wouldn't have considered Berardi and I'd also have been torn between RCB or RWB for Ayling's best position in that system too. After January though, the job Berardi did at Newport (good and bad) followed by the 2nd half vs Millwall, I think he can play that role, it might even suit him better given his primary weakness is his attacking game.

Dirty Leeds: I agree with everything you've written. When we first played Sheff Utd, I felt it was still early enough to make the shift, given we were in a rut at that time too. Now, I don't see it happening really but you never quite know what a new manager will do after assessing his squad properly. It is very much the 2nd half vs Millwall driving my thinking but the 2nd half against Cardiff (albeit against a side in a very comfortable position) reinforced that somewhat. It just appears to suit us. I'd also say it's natural enemy as a formation is 442, which pretty much no-one plays any more - its more of less the only system which allows for using the width whilst also occupying the back 3 enough to prevent them easily shuffling across to cover.

In terms of the need to adjust to cover, we have players in Berardi and Ayling very much able to cover both CB and FB (though I would worry about having both in the same back 3 in terms of a lack of height). In Alioski, Dallas, Le Bock, Ayling I think we have 4 players who could play WB effectively (3 of them I'd expect to be as good as if not better than in their so called primary position), in different styles (Le Bock and Ayling might be the options away to Wolves for example). Forshaw has enough about him to drop into any position in the back line during the flow of a game. Saiz in a #10 free role has the intelligence to find space anywhere across the park and support whatever he needs to, Pablo too but with more of a (new found) defensive work rate. Up top, if Lasogga's role is to stay in and around the box, Roofe, Ekuban and (I assume) Roberts seem suited to running the channels (Ekuban in particular could do it in the style Sharp did the other day).

I also think it's an easy transition to 442 if its not working, whatever line up we went with and only 1 sub from 4231.

To me its a no brainer but I'd also happily accept it really needs a full pre-season or at absolute minimum an international break to work on it. It'd also be a pisser for De Bock as he's an out and out LB, the shift would be a case of doing a job or drop him - and very much a case of deja vu given the reason he came here.

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby thestraw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:54 pm

dirty leeds wrote:We all revise what we think as games go by and things develop. Nowt wrong with that.
So, looking at the squad we have post-Jan window, I'd say our genuinely good players - those who ought to be in a team that's looking to go up next season - are:
Pontus
Pennington
Forshaw
Hernandez
Saiz
Lasogga*


Lassoga, Pennington, Pontus, Siaz and possibly even Pablo wont be here next season.

But at least Coops and OKane have recently signed new 4 year contracts and wont be going anywhere.. :cheers:
#MOT #GAWA

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thestraw
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby thestraw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:56 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:I thought Sheff Utd showed us the way earlier in the season and nothing I saw yesterday to change my mind.

I'm a big fan of their 352 which pretty much involves wingers rather than full backs. I'd like to see be a little cautious with it at first with Dallas or De Bock with Alioski the other side (Penners, Pontus, Berardi the back 3) but I'd honestly not be too worried by Pablo on the left given Berardi can go to full back and Forshaw into the back line as and when necessary. The trick of course is to successfully play on the front foot at all times.

Forshaw + an other sitting deep (Vieira off he's fully fit, Phillips my preference of the other 2), Saiz behind Lasogga and 1 from Ekuban, Roofe or Roberts.

I agree, the only problem we have with playing 3 at the back is we dont have enough centre backs.
#MOT #GAWA

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dirty leeds
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby dirty leeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:03 pm

Phil LUFC wrote:It'd also be a pisser for De Bock as he's an out and out LB, the shift would be a case of doing a job or drop him - and very much a case of deja vu given the reason he came here.


Yeah, was thinking about that. Actually, rather than learning to be a wingback maybe he should adapt the other way and become the left-sided CB in a three? He's probably big and strong enough, in the same way as Ayling is also probably up to the job. Seems defensively intelligent [so far].
As it stands with injuries/suspensions, that could mean Pennington, Pontus and de Bock as back three, with Dallas and Alioski as right and left.
Until Saiz comes back we go with Forshaw and Vieira/Phillips behind Pablo, and with Lasogga and Ekuban or Roberts [if fit] up top?

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thestraw
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby thestraw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:04 pm

My ideal line-up (injuries and suspensions avoided) this season would be:


.....................Wiedwald..................
Dallas......Ayling...Pontus...Pennington......Debock/Alioski
.................Vieira...Forshaw...............
.....................Saiz..Pablo.................
.......................Lassoga...................

the problem we have is dealing with injuries and suspensions as the back up options like OKane, Berardi, Coops, Roofe, Sacko are rubbish and we havent enough CB's to play 3 at the back in case of injuries/suspensions/form.
#MOT #GAWA

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dirty leeds
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby dirty leeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:07 pm

thestraw wrote:My ideal line-up (injuries and suspensions avoided) this season would be:


.....................Wiedwald..................
Dallas......Ayling...Pontus...Pennington......Debock/Alioski
.................Vieira...Forshaw...............
.....................Saiz..Pablo.................
.......................Lassoga...................



Yeah, but you can't in all fairness say "this season" and then choose Ayling. That's having your cake and eating it.

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby thestraw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:11 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
thestraw wrote:My ideal line-up (injuries and suspensions avoided) this season would be:


.....................Wiedwald..................
Dallas......Ayling...Pontus...Pennington......Debock/Alioski
.................Vieira...Forshaw...............
.....................Saiz..Pablo.................
.......................Lassoga...................



Yeah, but you can't in all fairness say "this season" and then choose Ayling. That's having your cake and eating it.

see caveat *(injuries and suspensions avoided). The point i was actually making which you have helped highlight is if we had decent cover at CB, you'd expect someone to slot in there. Its the best system for us with the players but we just dont have the cover to execute it :thumbd:
#MOT #GAWA

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dirty leeds
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby dirty leeds » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:22 pm

thestraw wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:Yeah, but you can't in all fairness say "this season" and then choose Ayling. That's having your cake and eating it.


see caveat *(injuries and suspensions avoided). The point i was actually making which you have helped highlight is if we had decent cover at CB, you'd expect someone to slot in there. Its the best system for us with the players but we just dont have the cover to execute it :thumbd:


I saw the caveat, but since your ideal set-up isn't available, who are you going to play at CB?
Also, while your formation up front understandably seeks to make use of Saiz and Pablo causing havoc behind Lasogga, that still leaves Lasogga up top on his own. I'm interested to see what Lasogga and Ekuban can do together on our most advanced line [or possibly Lasogga and Roberts or Ekuban/Roberts?] We don't yet know what the latter can do, so it's hard to take any worthwhile view on him.

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
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Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Phil LUFC » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:33 pm

thestraw wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:I thought Sheff Utd showed us the way earlier in the season and nothing I saw yesterday to change my mind.

I'm a big fan of their 352 which pretty much involves wingers rather than full backs. I'd like to see be a little cautious with it at first with Dallas or De Bock with Alioski the other side (Penners, Pontus, Berardi the back 3) but I'd honestly not be too worried by Pablo on the left given Berardi can go to full back and Forshaw into the back line as and when necessary. The trick of course is to successfully play on the front foot at all times.

Forshaw + an other sitting deep (Vieira off he's fully fit, Phillips my preference of the other 2), Saiz behind Lasogga and 1 from Ekuban, Roofe or Roberts.

I agree, the only problem we have with playing 3 at the back is we dont have enough centre backs.

On the other hand, once you accept our full backs could do a good job in the back 3 and Dallas/Alioski are first choice wing backs, we have more cover than in a back 4. Pontus, Penners, Cooper, Berardi and De Bock. 5 players for 3 positions.
(I actually think De Bock has good attacking instincts and would be better shoehorned into wing back than CB).

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thestraw
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby thestraw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:34 pm

dirty leeds wrote:I saw the caveat, but since your ideal set-up isn't available, who are you going to play at CB?
Also, while your formation up front understandably seeks to make use of Saiz and Pablo causing havoc behind Lasogga, that still leaves Lasogga up top on his own. I'm interested to see what Lasogga and Ekuban can do together on our most advanced line [or possibly Lasogga and Roberts or Ekuban/Roberts?] We don't yet know what the latter can do, so it's hard to take any worthwhile view on him.

At the minute? Berardi seems the most logical (only?) option. Yeah, i really like Ekuban, but i wouldn't want to rely on him for goals, he has yet to score for us unless I'm mistaken. As for Tyler, he also could be a backup for Pierre, and at a push might be a better option than Roofe for Siaz / Pablo behind the the big man too. Hes still young and new and possibly not ready for a regular start.
I just think we are better suited (when everyone is fit and available ) for 3 at the back and i really think TC should have been changing it earlier in the season and pushing for a centre back or 2 signing in January.
#MOT #GAWA

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Quiffy
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:56 pm

Re: Blunts v 10 Men Cyberkop

Postby Quiffy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:13 pm

thestraw wrote: As for Tyler, he also could be a backup for Pierre, and at a push might be a better option than Roofe for Siaz / Pablo behind the the big man too. Hes still young and new and possibly not ready for a regular start.

i didn't really have a clue about him either so just dug up the youtube showreel. he looks a good footballer, but doesn't look like a replacement for lasogga, or the new ian rush as the video suggests, presumably based on his welshness. could maybe see him up front alongside lasogga or ekuban.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.


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