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Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:56 pm
by dirty leeds
the flying pig wrote:
Tommy wrote:Fallen idol.



shiiittt


I know nowt about The Fall so could I just ask one thing - is it common knowledge that he used to beat up Brix?

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:20 pm
by eric olthwaite
ChairmanMeaow wrote:Bill Is Dead and so is Mark E Smith, apparently


Odd how hard this has hit me. Mark E Smith felt more like an eternal presence than a real person. I get that thing about being able to remember when and where I first heard pretty much every album since Hex. Even Von Sudenfed.

Fuck.

Still, think he's the only fucker I've had on my list since I started this competition, so cheers for the points you mad fuck.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:34 pm
by eric olthwaite
Fucking relief to know I won't draw a blank again this year anyway.

Deaths:
Date of DeathCelebrityAge At DeathMisadventure?
17 January 18Jessica Falkholt29No
21 January 18Patrick Cryne66No
24 January 18Mark E Smith60No


Scores:
PosPosterPointsNumber of Correct Picks
1ChairmanMeaow1761
2Rob1411
3portadown white1241
4eric olthwaite951
5Andymac-4700
=B@stard / OWETB00
=Beer Pig00
=Blackwhite00
=Chieftain62600
=Dale White00
=Devi00
=Dods00
=dublin white 6900
=FER00
=FredFlintstone00
=Heathrow White00
=London_White00
=LUFCRay00
=Man Called Sun00
=metalsmurf00
=mi.mic.mick.mick jones00
=MightyWhite00
=motorheadache00
=Munson00
=Mustafaster00
=Oheddieeddie00
=Ontolly00
=Ponte00
=Proud to be Leeds00
=Quiffy00
=simon from cleck00
=the flying pig00
=The Tin Man00
=topbin00
=Tycipa00
=Wakefield White00
=wimpy00

Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:32 pm
by Still Hates Gordon Watson
dirty leeds wrote:
the flying pig wrote:
Tommy wrote:Fallen idol.



shiiittt


I know nowt about The Fall so could I just ask one thing - is it common knowledge that he used to beat up Brix?


Yeah, as a passing semi-fan, I was aware of it. Be interesting to see how much gets white-washed or not in the next day or so.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:36 pm
by eric olthwaite
Dunno. Think being a complete arsehole was a fairly widely recognised part of who he was.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:37 pm
by Ponte
Shame, that.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:53 pm
by dirty leeds
I only know about it because a former girlfriend used to be connected to a bloke who was in a relationship with Brix, post Mark. She confided in the bloke, who passed it on to my ex, who told me. A long-ish chain, but pretty sure it's good info.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:04 pm
by eric olthwaite
dirty leeds wrote:I only know about it because a former girlfriend used to be connected to a bloke who was in a relationship with Brix, post Mark. She confided in the bloke, who passed it on to my ex, who told me. A long-ish chain, but pretty sure it's good info.


Pretty sure it was in Steve Hanley's autobiography that he'd done similar to his previous girlfriend (wife?) who was their manager IIRC.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:50 am
by My grandad was from Leeds
dirty leeds wrote:
the flying pig wrote:
Tommy wrote:Fallen idol.



shiiittt


I know nowt about The Fall so could I just ask one thing - is it common knowledge that he used to beat up Brix?

I did see him drinking Stella on a documentary.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:26 am
by eric olthwaite
Of the many reasons to love Mark E. Smith the fact that back in the day he would relentlessly greet Morrissey with a cheery 'Hello Steven!' has to be right up there.


:lol:

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:02 am
by Man Called Sun
I was in the departure bit of Warsaw airport a couple of years ago, and I saw what looked like a dwarf tramp sturggling the get his bag through the security check, on the other side of the room. He was hunched over, shuffling about, in an oversized, grubby suit.

As I was looking at him I thought 'hang on, is that Mark E Smith?' So obviously I was looking intently when he looked up and clocked me. He marched right past me, barging me out of the way, yelling at me to 'get out of his fucking space'. Shoved by greatness.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:46 am
by Tommy
eric olthwaite wrote:Dunno. Think being a complete arsehole was a fairly widely recognised part of who he was.

Definitely. At the moment there's a massive public conversation about whether or not you can enjoy the art of people who were otherwise unsavoury, perhaps even vile people and I hold that you can. I hate domestic violence and I'm certainly not making excuses for it but I'm also not going to stop listening to the music of say, John Lennon, Neil Young, Public Enemy or indeed, The Fall amongst presumably hundreds of others. I completely get why there's a very necessary backlash against manipulative and inappropriate behaviour and I absolutely support people being taken to task for it but if you were to actually spend any time scrutinising all art based on whether the creator made exactly the sort of (at times dreadful) mistakes that make people human, we'd basically have to start over again culturally every six months.

Mark E Smith was at once a fairly awful man by just about every metric going but also inarguably a modern literary genius. You can acknowledge both of these things, it's not a contradiction.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:16 pm
by dirty leeds
Tommy wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:Dunno. Think being a complete arsehole was a fairly widely recognised part of who he was.

Definitely. At the moment there's a massive public conversation about whether or not you can enjoy the art of people who were otherwise unsavoury, perhaps even vile people and I hold that you can. I hate domestic violence and I'm certainly not making excuses for it but I'm also not going to stop listening to the music of say, John Lennon, Neil Young, Public Enemy or indeed, The Fall amongst presumably hundreds of others. I completely get why there's a very necessary backlash against manipulative and inappropriate behaviour and I absolutely support people being taken to task for it but if you were to actually spend any time scrutinising all art based on whether the creator made exactly the sort of (at times dreadful) mistakes that make people human, we'd basically have to start over again culturally every six months.

Mark E Smith was at once a fairly awful man by just about every metric going but also inarguably a modern literary genius. You can acknowledge both of these things, it's not a contradiction.



Yep, spot on. Feet of clay, an' all that. It's just the way we are. Being sometimes a genius and at others an evil cunt is not a mutually exclusive thing.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:43 pm
by Blackwhite
But what if you can't see how he was anything but a shit chancer?

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:39 pm
by Mustafaster
Blackwhite wrote:But what if you can't see how he was anything but a shit chancer?

Definitely an element of that in him.
You either "got" him or you didn't.
Personally I didn't, couldn't see that there was much to get. But he was a one-off, so fair play to him for that.
People comparing him to Larkin, Eliot and Yeats is a bit far, though.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:25 pm
by Blackwhite
Oh he was a character all right.



I didn't get it either. But then, I am a cloth-eared faggot.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:41 pm
by Tommy
Blackwhite wrote:But what if you can't see how he was anything but a shit chancer?

There was an element of chance to his success, obviously. Diehard fans often bought into the notion that he had some great masterplan and that there was always method to his madness but having seen it in talented people around me for much of my life, I think he was mainly an unrepentant alcoholic who kept the name of his band going through sheer persistence. He was fortunate enough to be paired with some really great songwriters and musicians for decades and they put up with his nonsense for varying lengths of times. However, it is a fact that none of his collaborators found great success in music outside of The Fall. If you can accept that punk rock is a form of (post)-modern art, anyone who wrote upwards of a hundred songs that were indisputably compelling and also inspired artists of all different stripes for many years to this day, you have to accept that there was something to him beyond good fortune. There is not one but several websites dedicated to dissecting his lyrics and he was so prolific that no doubt the discussion will outlive all of us.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:27 pm
by eric olthwaite
Blackwhite wrote:But what if you can't see how he was anything but a shit chancer?


I mean, you'd have to come up with some sort of metric for that. If I said Miles Davis was a shit chancer just because, personally, I'm not really up for listening to him I think it would be questionable.

But 'shit chancer' tends to connote some sort of opportunism maybe related to fashion or popularity. I think that's pretty much the antithesis of someone who basically did one thing for 35 years utterly regardless of what anyone else thought, musical fashion or whatever. And on the way fucked off no end of record companies because they wanted him to give the commercial popularity thing a go.

I thought Dave Simpson pretty much nailed it here:

On a good night, with Smith at full pelt and Steve Hanley grappling with the bass like it was a wild animal, they were the best band in the world. On a bad one, they could be an irritable, irascible row. I first vowed to never go and see the Fall again as long ago as 1985, and yet like a dog returning to its vomit, I’d always be drawn back.

They were never quite my favourite band, but were always there or thereabouts, a microcosm of their relationship with the rest of pop

Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:19 pm
by Still Hates Gordon Watson
He liked to be on the receiving end too if this week’s Popbitch email is to be believed (ahem):

>> Fall: Out <<
RIP Mark E Smith

Mark E Smith was a famously difficult presence, but one journalist found a trick to make him behave.

After shadowing him while he got pissed and smashed up a Radio 1 broadcast booth as part of his Breezblock session, then following him back to his hotel in a taxi where he barked orders to the driver in German, she knew all along he was going to be trouble.

But when he responded to all of her interview questions with high-pitched giggles, she flipped and told him he was being unprofessional. To which he replied: "I am being a naughty boy, aren't I? Okay, hit me, and I'll do it properly."

It wasn't a joke. Mark insisted. The interviewer pointed out that, as she did kickboxing, she could actually do him some serious damage, but he wouldn't budge on the matter.

He took three hefty smacks to the face before he announced that she'd done it hard enough and that he would now allow the interview to continue. After that, he was co-operative as you like.

Re: Better Late Than Dead 2018 Thread

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:41 pm
by Ontolly
Does all this mean that I can start listening to my Gary Glitter records again?