The State of US/World politics

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:00 am

Eddies Boots wrote:Make a deal about trade then, not about circumventing local laws.
If we have rules that say our food industry cannot do X, then why allow anyone to do X just because they originate in a banana-republic or the wild-west and shell out loads of lobby cash so that their own government allows X.
Same goes for manufacturing standards or building regs.

Its also funny because many of the same folk that might support this would be horrified if the same "latitude" were applied to other areas restricted by law that might come under the heading of religious or "local" customs.


Trade deals should be about levelling up, not levelling down to the lowest standards. Obviously, as with any deal, there has to be pragmatism and some give and take. Some local laws saying an industry "cannot do X" are designed to protect existing producers by raising barriers to entry rather than to protect consumers. Nobody can get everything they want. But with goodwill most trade deals leave the majority better off.

Still waiting for Musta to clarify his position re the "onward march of global capital." (Sound very 70s passe?).
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:24 am

Very good example of the onward march of Global Capital from Nissan yesterday. Effectively holding a gun to the government's head. Give us what we want or we'll take 40k jobs away from a deprived area that pretty much depends on them. Standard practice these days.
The phrase Global Capital us not from the 70s btw. It's much more recent. There were multinational companies around in the 70s and even in the 18th C, but the nature of their OS changed with digital technology, the Big Bang in London and the repeal of Glass- Steagall.
It wasn't until Clinton took the brakes off that the term gained any traction.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Vampire
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:30 am

Mustafaster wrote:Very good example of the onward march of Global Capital from Nissan yesterday. Effectively holding a gun to the government's head. Give us what we want or we'll take 40k jobs away from a deprived area that pretty much depends on them. Standard practice these days.
The phrase Global Capital us not from the 70s btw. It's much more recent. There were multinational companies around in the 70s and even in the 18th C, but the nature of their OS changed with digital technology, the Big Bang in London and the repeal of Glass- Steagall.
It wasn't until Clinton took the brakes off that the term gained any traction.


So, the simple question I asked you: are you opposed to trade?
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

Eddies Boots
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Eddies Boots » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:27 pm

Vampire wrote:
Eddies Boots wrote:Make a deal about trade then, not about circumventing local laws.
If we have rules that say our food industry cannot do X, then why allow anyone to do X just because they originate in a banana-republic or the wild-west and shell out loads of lobby cash so that their own government allows X.
Same goes for manufacturing standards or building regs.

Its also funny because many of the same folk that might support this would be horrified if the same "latitude" were applied to other areas restricted by law that might come under the heading of religious or "local" customs.


Trade deals should be about levelling up, not levelling down to the lowest standards. Obviously, as with any deal, there has to be pragmatism and some give and take. Some local laws saying an industry "cannot do X" are designed to protect existing producers by raising barriers to entry rather than to protect consumers. Nobody can get everything they want. But with goodwill most trade deals leave the majority better off.

Still waiting for Musta to clarify his position re the "onward march of global capital." (Sound very 70s passe?).


You make 2 assertions that I do not agree with.
1) You jump to the assumption that any laws are in place to protect a local industry - while most people are objecting to the fact that it exposes "quality" or "health" regulations. Make sure that those are excluded and then "level" the others as appropriate.
2) My stance is really about law not commerce. A government can agree to waive laws for corporations as appropriate - just as Ireland has given huge tax exemptions to some companies. However, I don't see that corporations should have any kind of framework within which they can demand special treatement. I don't see this as any different from one corporation selling to "partners" or "best customers" at a lower rate than others who cannot force them to use the same trading conditions. It is their discretion.

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Vampire
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:25 am

Eddies Boots wrote:You make 2 assertions that I do not agree with.
1) You jump to the assumption that any laws are in place to protect a local industry - while most people are objecting to the fact that it exposes "quality" or "health" regulations. Make sure that those are excluded and then "level" the others as appropriate.
2) My stance is really about law not commerce. A government can agree to waive laws for corporations as appropriate - just as Ireland has given huge tax exemptions to some companies. However, I don't see that corporations should have any kind of framework within which they can demand special treatement. I don't see this as any different from one corporation selling to "partners" or "best customers" at a lower rate than others who cannot force them to use the same trading conditions. It is their discretion.


The problem with your first point (whilst I don't disagree in principle) is that those seeking to limit competition often raise phoney "quality" or "health" issues as a smokescreen - but these do not really stand up to scrutiny when examined more closely. Scaremongering is a typical response from those seeking to maintain barriers to entry. For example, opponents of Uber have claimed there's more risk of being attacked, mugged, raped etc by Uber drivers. But how is someone who leaves a digital fingerprint all the way through registration, booking, collection, and drop off going to be less safe than an unrecorded mini cab?

I agree in principle that trade deals should seek to level up particularly on safety - but it isn't always clear what the optimum rules should be. In the end, to get an agreement between many different countries there has to be give and take on all sides. Trade deals are never perfect for any one country, but they should leave all countries better off - and certainly create an overall rise in global living standards.

I'm not really following your second point. Do you have an example to illustrate?
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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dirty leeds
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby dirty leeds » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:55 am

Vampire wrote:For example, opponents of Uber have claimed there's more risk of being attacked, mugged, raped etc by Uber drivers. But how is someone who leaves a digital fingerprint all the way through registration, booking, collection, and drop off going to be less safe than an unrecorded mini cab?


Not read the rest of your discussion with Eddie, but the Uber example doesn't quite work as you intended - at least, not here in London. My best mate is a Black Cab driver. As part of 'The Knowledge' they are tested by the examiners with regard to their personality and fitness for the 'badge'. The tradition with Black Cab drivers is that, as part of an association, they have standards to keep up, and so the Carriage Office seriously tries to maintain these. For example they have guys going out inspecting cabs on the street, putting 'stop' notices on any they find not up to scratch - rusty or messy vehicles and so on. The driver can't work again until the problem is fixed. They don't just want to know if the prospective driver can remember the routes from A-Z, they actually put a bit of work in along the way to find out how you react under pressure and so on. It's not like joining the SAS, obviously, but they don't just let anyone in. Black Cab drivers know if they don't behave they lose their livelihood. Or that's how it seemed until Uber came along as an alternative. I'm only going from memory, but you hardly ever hear of assaults or similar difficulties with Black Cab drivers.

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Vampire
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:11 am

dirty leeds wrote:
Vampire wrote:For example, opponents of Uber have claimed there's more risk of being attacked, mugged, raped etc by Uber drivers. But how is someone who leaves a digital fingerprint all the way through registration, booking, collection, and drop off going to be less safe than an unrecorded mini cab?


Not read the rest of your discussion with Eddie, but the Uber example doesn't quite work as you intended - at least, not here in London. My best mate is a Black Cab driver. As part of 'The Knowledge' they are tested by the examiners with regard to their personality and fitness for the 'badge'. The tradition with Black Cab drivers is that, as part of an association, they have standards to keep up, and so the Carriage Office seriously tries to maintain these. For example they have guys going out inspecting cabs on the street, putting 'stop' notices on any they find not up to scratch - rusty or messy vehicles and so on. The driver can't work again until the problem is fixed. They don't just want to know if the prospective driver can remember the routes from A-Z, they actually put a bit of work in along the way to find out how you react under pressure and so on. It's not like joining the SAS, obviously, but they don't just let anyone in. Black Cab drivers know if they don't behave they lose their livelihood. Or that's how it seemed until Uber came along as an alternative. I'm only going from memory, but you hardly ever hear of assaults or similar difficulties with Black Cab drivers.


Yes, that's fine if that really improves the quality of their service and they want to compete on that model of quality - but why impose such standards on other entrants if they're not strictly required for, say, reasonable consumer safety - and many customers prefer to choose an alternative based on their overall expectation/experience of cost, quality, reliability, etc?

Trade deals such as TTIP which seek to impose harmonised regulations (level playing field) are often opposed by home industries not out of an interest for consumer safety - but out of self interest in maintaining unnecessary barriers to entry for potential competitors.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

Mindo
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mindo » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:41 am

Game over for Trump. Surely. Please?

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FredFlintstone
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby FredFlintstone » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:57 am

Mindo wrote:Game over for Trump. Surely. Please?


I suppose it depends on how much WikiLeaks have been holding back on HRC?

I sit here on the Western side of the pond, look over at the US and see some of my friends over there on social media having their usual 4-yearly falling out with people they've known for years because some are Republicans and some are Democrats. Then I look at the candidates and think why the fuck are you even arguing? Of all times for Republicans and Democrats to unite over one thing it must be that they should go to the polls and write-in "None of the above" this time around.

I mean giving an electorate a choice between Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton is like giving someone a choice between a cow shit sandwich and a pig shit sandwich Shirley?

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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:15 am

FredFlintstone wrote:
Mindo wrote:Game over for Trump. Surely. Please?


I suppose it depends on how much WikiLeaks have been holding back on HRC?

I sit here on the Western side of the pond, look over at the US and see some of my friends over there on social media having their usual 4-yearly falling out with people they've known for years because some are Republicans and some are Democrats. Then I look at the candidates and think why the fuck are you even arguing? Of all times for Republicans and Democrats to unite over one thing it must be that they should go to the polls and write-in "None of the above" this time around.

I mean giving an electorate a choice between Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton is like giving someone a choice between a cow shit sandwich and a pig shit sandwich Shirley?


I'm no Clinton fan, but the false equivalency that some use to link the two is ridiculous. There is no e-mail controversy or anything else in her background that rises to the level of the odiousness, in almost every way, that Trump represents. It all (finally) seemed to come home to roost for him amongst Republicans tonight. They're the most shameless motherfuckers I've ever seen. He should never have been a nominee to start.

Wikileaks won't make more than a dent of difference now. It's abundantly clear Assange is in the tank with Russia, or at best, is a useful idiot for them. The amount of Americans who will be swayed to vote differently or who give two damns at all is very small.

The bitch of Wikileaks is that it tells truths with an agenda, and when you do that, it hurts the credibility of the truth being told. I mean, why not release all of the information cache at once? Give us the truth all at once. To time it out reeks of me-me-me self-aggrandizement that serves Assange, not the seeking of truth, no matter whether 100 percent of it is true or not. His "news conference" earlier this week is the proof in the pudding.

At any rate, the alternatives are no better. Gary Johnson is a baked-out moron. Jill Stein is a complete kook. Understand that in many states (including mine), write-in candidates are not allowed.

If Sanders were the nominee? This would be a landslide. Clinton is not popular, but she's not the devil incarnate either. I'll vote for her, maybe not enthusiastically, but with the 100 percent certainty she's most qualified for the job, and in the end, whether you like the candidate or not, that's all that really matters.
"If you sell the refrigerator to buy the beer, where the fuck do you put the beer?"

"You'll never be Emperor of the North Pole, kid. You had the juice, kid, but not the heart and they go together."

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moscowhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby moscowhite » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:30 am

Terre Harte wrote:Gary Johnson is a baked-out moron.


'If you give Leeds the ball, they will make you dance.' - Johan Cruyff

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Vampire
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:11 am

Terre Harte wrote:I'm no Clinton fan, but the false equivalency that some use to link the two is ridiculous. There is no e-mail controversy or anything else in her background that rises to the level of the odiousness, in almost every way, that Trump represents.....

Clinton is not popular, but she's not the devil incarnate either. I'll vote for her, maybe not enthusiastically, but with the 100 percent certainty she's most qualified for the job, and in the end, whether you like the candidate or not, that's all that really matters.


Absolutely spot on there, TH.

Not just his odiousness, but his complete lack of coherent policy (normally a pre-requisite for a campaign for the top job). His economic policy promises massive tax cuts, increases in public spending, and a lower deficit. A ten year old would be kicked out of maths class for that. Clinton has some policies I would disagree with - but they are at least coherent and reasonably detailed. Today's Presidential debate has brought shame on your Country.

Today, in our Federal Parliament, Government and Opposition Parties (who in recent times rarely agree on anything) United in condemning Trump as loathsome. Totally against the convention here of not taking sides in general elections of foreign allies - a sure sign of his impact on your international reputation for getting this far.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:10 pm

Which side of the fence do the Animal Justice Vegetable Rights And Peace Party fall on?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Terre Harte
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:30 pm

How I felt watching the debate last night ...



Jokes aside, I was just so embarrassed, angry, disappointed and ashamed that this is what passes for political discourse from one of our major parties. I'm pretty sure I had a hand on my head for the first 30 minutes in a sort of permanent facepalm pose. It was uncomfortable. I should have just watched my Green Bay Packers.

My 13-year-old daughter watched too. This is the first election she's really paid attention to. She was (as I was) a Sanders supporter, and she had kind of bought into the idea that Clinton was bad, but had never really watched her before.

I asked her if she still thought Clinton was as bad as Trump as she gave me that 1,000-yard stare as if to say, "are you fucking kidding me?"

I can only hope that Trump takes down the GOP with him. Their protests this weekend were so hilariously transparent. It's their policies, their pandering to our worst natures that created this monster to begin with.

The Senate was already an open question as to whether the GOP would retain it, and now, they're in mortal danger of losing it. That's important because the Senate confirms Supreme Court justices, who have the most long-lasting say over law. Some think the House is in jeopardy too. Not sure about that, but there's a good chance their majority will be eaten into.

Sow the wind, reap the mother-fucking whirlwind, Republicans. You brought this on yourselves and you so richly deserve the consequences.
"If you sell the refrigerator to buy the beer, where the fuck do you put the beer?"

"You'll never be Emperor of the North Pole, kid. You had the juice, kid, but not the heart and they go together."

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Vampire
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:05 pm

Blackwhite wrote:Which side of the fence do the Animal Justice Vegetable Rights And Peace Party fall on?


If you mean the AJP (with whom you seem strangely so obsessed) I'm sure if you write to them with your queries they'll be delighted to answer and send you lots of informative material through the post.

Returning to topic on Trump, have you noticed similarities between his "debating" style and yours? His use of insults rather than arguments, his cavalier disregard for facts, his elevation of emotion over logic, his hatred of elites and authority, his use of innuendo and smear against those he dislikes, his braggadocio stories? If you were doing it tough in the American rust belt, rather than living off Government or publicly funded payrolls in the UK, I suspect you might be one of his biggest fans.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

Terre Harte
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:53 pm

I "did it" in the Rust Belt today.

(I'm here all week ...)
"If you sell the refrigerator to buy the beer, where the fuck do you put the beer?"

"You'll never be Emperor of the North Pole, kid. You had the juice, kid, but not the heart and they go together."

Phatphil65
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:46 pm

Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Phatphil65 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:57 pm

Vampire wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:Which side of the fence do the Animal Justice Vegetable Rights And Peace Party fall on?


If you mean the AJP (with whom you seem strangely so obsessed) I'm sure if you write to them with your queries they'll be delighted to answer and send you lots of informative material through the post.

Returning to topic on Trump, have you noticed similarities between his "debating" style and yours? His use of insults rather than arguments, his cavalier disregard for facts, his elevation of emotion over logic, his hatred of elites and authority, his use of innuendo and smear against those he dislikes, his braggadocio stories? If you were doing it tough in the American rust belt, rather than living off Government or publicly funded payrolls in the UK, I suspect you might be one of his biggest fans.


:cheers: :cheers:

Fucking have it BW!! The worm has finally turned :D

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:03 pm

Worms and the hooks they jump onto. One day, the sense of humour fairy may call on him.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:17 am

Given there's been some bollocks spouted about "just" trade deals here, meet TTIP's bigger brother, TISA. Another dodgy negotiation process only revealed by leaks of documents to Assange.
The CEPR verdict:
Globalization’s cheerleaders are all handwringing about the widespread opposition to trade pacts. But what they don’t acknowledge is that people around the world are not rejecting “trade,” they are rejecting corporate control over our lives. People want to live in a democracy; they want quality, accessible public services; a well-regulated financial sector; and decent jobs for all ― the opposite agenda of the deregulation, locked-in privatization, and antidevelopment fundamentals of the secret proposed TISA, according to [Friday’s] explosive leak.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:25 am

Blackwhite wrote:Given there's been some bollocks spouted about "just" trade deals here, meet TTIP's bigger brother, TISA. Another dodgy negotiation process only revealed by leaks of documents to Assange.
The CEPR verdict:
Globalization’s cheerleaders are all handwringing about the widespread opposition to trade pacts. But what they don’t acknowledge is that people around the world are not rejecting “trade,” they are rejecting corporate control over our lives. People want to live in a democracy; they want quality, accessible public services; a well-regulated financial sector; and decent jobs for all ― the opposite agenda of the deregulation, locked-in privatization, and antidevelopment fundamentals of the secret proposed TISA, according to [Friday’s] explosive leak.


Your mate Musta recently posted an anti TTIP comment, so I asked him if he was opposed to trade? He refused to answer. What about you? Are you (like Donald Trump's current campaign) opposed to trade - or if not - what exactly are you opposed to here? If this isn't just populist nonsense, then please explain what you are opposed to and why?
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.


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