The State of US/World politics

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:13 pm

Watch Biden lose in a fog of Alzheimer's and minor sex offences.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Professor Weeto
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Professor Weeto » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:14 pm

Must be truly inspiring for the citizens of America to finally have a choice between two candidates who have been accused of rape.

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Tommy
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The State of US/World politics

Postby Tommy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:09 pm

I doubt many people who were going to vote for Bernie will vote for Biden so presumably Trump wins again. Disaster for the planet at large. Probably the same if Biden were to somehow win if we’re being honest.

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jackos
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby jackos » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:15 pm

Blackwhite wrote:Watch Biden lose in a fog of Alzheimer's and minor sex offences.


His age and obvious frailty does make his choice of running mate very interesting, hopefully he can put on a decent showing Nov 3rd. Haven't seen the rape accusations before today, just heard about "inappropriate behaviour". I just googled it, and the story seems to be getting most attention from the Conservative right wing of the US press and some of Sanders more vocal supporters. Very little to nothing in the mainstream media. Doesnt mean its bullshit, but all the sources I found had obvious agendas.

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jackos
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby jackos » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:23 pm

Tommy wrote:I doubt many people who were going to vote for Bernie will vote for Biden so presumably Trump wins again. Disaster for the planet at large. Probably the same if Biden were to somehow win if we’re being honest.


Why? If Trump would be a disaster for the planet why not vote for the Democrat? I've no idea why you think Biden would be just as bad, but then I do count you in the same category as the "no-one but Biden" folks given your reaction to Corbyn's failure last year.

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Tommy
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Tommy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Biden not as bad as Trump but presumably he'll do something like sweet fuck all in terms of climate change, which to me is the most pressing issue alongside electoral reform.

If they hadn't overlooked Sanders again I think I could hold my nose and vote for Biden but given that they've made the same mistake twice in a row I don't know if I could do it either.

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jackos
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby jackos » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:40 pm

Tommy wrote:Biden not as bad as Trump but presumably he'll do something like sweet fuck all in terms of climate change, which to me is the most pressing issue alongside electoral reform..


Biden supported most if not all of Obama's policies on climate chsnge as far as I know, but simply reversing everything Trump has broken would be a gigantic step in the right direction.

Have you bothered reading this?
https://joebiden.com/climate/

If you did, did you notice any significant difference's compared to Trump's policy of denial?

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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:06 pm

This:

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Tommy
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The State of US/World politics

Postby Tommy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:29 pm

Jackos I guess it depends on whether you trust what a person says whilst they are campaigning. I definitely trust Bernie Sanders.

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Terre Harte II
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte II » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:29 pm

Tommy wrote:I doubt many people who were going to vote for Bernie will vote for Biden so presumably Trump wins again. Disaster for the planet at large. Probably the same if Biden were to somehow win if we’re being honest.


Then Bernie should have done a better job of reaching out beyond his base, particularly, towards African-American and Latino voters. He did fuck-all beyond preaching to his own choir.

It pisses me off, honestly. I was Bernie 2016, I was in the choir, but I became disillusioned when he did absolutely nothing to grow his message and make it palatable for a wider group of voters. It's especially stupid when you've got Trump to run against. He ran a bad campaign, pure and simple.

As for winning over Bernie voters? Where were they in 2016? It's not like they came out of the woodwork to flip that election. Our media, which I'm a part of, embarrasses me sometimes with these narratives. What you want are the Obama voters, like me, who were very unenthusiastic about voting for a crap candidate like Hillary Clinton, as well as minority voters, who refused to vote for her at all. Biden does a lot better with these constituencies. Then, of course, there's the much-ballyhooed YOUTH VOTE which almost never turns up to influence an election. It's all very overrated.

The bottom line? You have to flip voters in four key states: Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Maybe Iowa too. None of those states are where Sanders' support is in a general election. Biden has a far better chance to win the Midwestern states and likely Florida too, without losing any states that were already blue.

I'm with Biden this year because I want Trump out, pure and simple. He can win. Sanders can't.

As for the notion he'll be just as bad for the environment as Trump? That's just fucking laughable. NO ONE could be worse than Trump. That's your own political biases clouding your judgement.
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Eddies Boots » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:00 pm

Even without Bernie's zealots, Clinton still got more votes than Trump last time.
As TH says - its where you pick up those votes that counts, and Biden should do better in the relevant states.
But of course Biden could eff it up picking the wrong running mate.
And everyone blithely assumes that the anti-Trump vote will mean that he does not lose any states.
Not without hope.

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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte II » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:17 pm

Eddies Boots wrote:Even without Bernie's zealots, Clinton still got more votes than Trump last time.
As TH says - its where you pick up those votes that counts, and Biden should do better in the relevant states.
But of course Biden could eff it up picking the wrong running mate.
And everyone blithely assumes that the anti-Trump vote will mean that he does not lose any states.
Not without hope.


The key for Biden's running mate is to balance off his age and to name a female VP, which he said he would. Kamala Harris would be a good choice, I think.

This time, the VP choice does matter, but most of the time? It's an overrated influence (or lack thereof) on the election.
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:38 pm

TH, genuine question, how much do you sign up to the theory that having Pence on the ticket was ultimately irrelevant to the orange cunt? And still seems not to be necessary to keep the frothing god botherers onside...?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Terre Harte II
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Terre Harte II » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:45 pm

Blackwhite wrote:TH, genuine question, how much do you sign up to the theory that having Pence on the ticket was ultimately irrelevant to the orange cunt? And still seems not to be necessary to keep the frothing god botherers onside...?


I think he was irrelevant. The God Squaders, who by the way, have repeatedly shown their asses and twisted themselves into a Gordian knot of justifications and lies throughout the Trump presidency, were going to be aligned against Clinton no matter what. Pence is a total non-entity. If he somehow ran in a general election? He'd get destroyed.

I say that living in the state where he was governor. He was well on his way to getting trounced in the gubernatorial election in Indiana, the one Great Lakes state that is reliably Republican, because even the GOPers here (who aren't quite as Evangelical here as they are down South and in the Great Plains) realized he was an empty suit. He quit that race, hopped on the Trump bandwagon, boot-licked like a champ, and fell ass-backwards into the VP spot.

Put it this way. Satan himself could run as a Republican and Jesus Christ could run as a Democrat, but so long as Satan said he was against abortion? The God Squaders in Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina and a few other states would ensure they would be red in a general election. They are pre-disposed to thinking the Democratic Party is the arch-enemy of their faith, their ridiculous rapture fantasies, etc.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:45 am

Cheers. Yeah the contortions are quite impressive, but I find American politics to be just so unbearably hypocritical and logically inconsistent (and I'm a citizen of perfidious Albion!) that I just can't even.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:57 am

I get the thing about Biden being a disappointment, but it seems to me like there’s an order of magnitude between concern about a shit politician and about a malevolent sociopath.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:06 am

eric olthwaite wrote:I get the thing about Biden being a disappointment, but it seems to me like there’s an order of magnitude between concern about a shit politician and about a malevolent sociopath.

Possibly, but what difference does it make if the shit politician is bound to lose to the sociopath?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Ponte
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Ponte » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:43 am

Blackwhite wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I get the thing about Biden being a disappointment, but it seems to me like there’s an order of magnitude between concern about a shit politician and about a malevolent sociopath.

Possibly, but what difference does it make if the shit politician is bound to lose to the sociopath?

The fact that Trump will get back in, even after handling a pandemic so badly he will have cost countless lives and looking like an incompetent dictatorial lunatic at every press conference is fucking insane. His whole attitude towards the states and giving more supplies to the ones that are gracious towards him should see him dethroned and jailed but it will see him re-elected.
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Hmmm.

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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:49 am

Biden is fucked by Covid 19.
He can't get out on the stump, can't fundraise...
Meanwhile Trump is on the telly every night.
Only hope is if the Obamas get involved imo.
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Vampire » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:41 am

Terre Harte II wrote:
Tommy wrote:I doubt many people who were going to vote for Bernie will vote for Biden so presumably Trump wins again. Disaster for the planet at large. Probably the same if Biden were to somehow win if we’re being honest.


Then Bernie should have done a better job of reaching out beyond his base, particularly, towards African-American and Latino voters. He did fuck-all beyond preaching to his own choir.

It pisses me off, honestly. I was Bernie 2016, I was in the choir, but I became disillusioned when he did absolutely nothing to grow his message and make it palatable for a wider group of voters. It's especially stupid when you've got Trump to run against. He ran a bad campaign, pure and simple.

As for winning over Bernie voters? Where were they in 2016? It's not like they came out of the woodwork to flip that election. Our media, which I'm a part of, embarrasses me sometimes with these narratives. What you want are the Obama voters, like me, who were very unenthusiastic about voting for a crap candidate like Hillary Clinton, as well as minority voters, who refused to vote for her at all. Biden does a lot better with these constituencies. Then, of course, there's the much-ballyhooed YOUTH VOTE which almost never turns up to influence an election. It's all very overrated.

The bottom line? You have to flip voters in four key states: Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Maybe Iowa too. None of those states are where Sanders' support is in a general election. Biden has a far better chance to win the Midwestern states and likely Florida too, without losing any states that were already blue.

I'm with Biden this year because I want Trump out, pure and simple. He can win. Sanders can't.

As for the notion he'll be just as bad for the environment as Trump? That's just fucking laughable. NO ONE could be worse than Trump. That's your own political biases clouding your judgement.


Excellent analysis, TH2.

It simply beggars belief that any of those on here who’ve had a front row seat to Corbyn suffering the worst Labour electoral defeat since 1935 against possibly the most incompetent UK Government in the same period would now advocate doubling down on Sanders!

You rightly point out some electoral strengths of Biden - particularly his support among black voters. I would add that, whilst Biden may not be an inspiring candidate (an indictment of the mainstream wing of the Democratic Party in some ways that he is the best they could come up), he does strike me as a competent and decent man.

I just have a feeling a public health emergency like Covid 19 might make someone like Biden more appealing than populists (of left or right) with their fantasy bullshit manifestos. In a health crisis who do you trust most - a doctor who appears competent and decent - or a loud mouthed snake oil salesman?
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