The State of US/World politics

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Devi
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Devi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:47 am

Article 7 of the EU Treaty: "Suspension of any state that uses force against its own population"...
I like it. What is it?

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby the flying pig » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:01 am

i recently read 'the mandibles', book by whatshername, shriver, who wrote 'we need to talk about kevin'.

it starts out as a semi-amusing romp about economic apocalypse in a fictional future USA circa 2029–2047, their national debt gets out of control, currency tanks, etc, all manner of daft stuff happens like mexico ending up much richer than the yanks [on a per capita & maybe even absolute basis], putting up very strict border controls to keep out fleeing gringos, etc. bit of atlas shrugged/1984 action going on as the cash-strapped government goes all authoritarian & nasty.

gets seriously bogged down towards the end as the last semblance of interesting plot is cast aside in favour of the author's determination to crowbar in as many digs as possible related to her own particular brand of 'libertarian' [as in actually libertarian, not pro free market but socially conserative like most modern rightwing parties] political views, some of which i'd agree with, much of it not, e.g.

good = most personal 'freedoms' including gun ownership; property rights; international trade; immigration; the gold standard; etc.

bad = tax [beyond say a 10% flat tax]; [any] welfare state; fiat money; believing in climate change; expansionary military [or fiscal, or monetary] policy; etc.


i suppose it really [tho presumably written when trump was campaigning rather than in power] amounts to the author's critique of the USA's current, uh, malaise.


overall i'd give it 4/10.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:31 am

Devi wrote:Article 7 of the EU Treaty: "Suspension of any state that uses force against its own population"...


Yeah, seen a deal of huffin' and fuffin' on Twatter about this one - particularly from Leavers arguing that it just shows how corrupt and anti-democratic the EU is.

Clearly the 'trigger level' is ill-defined. I mean, would you not argue that police actions during Orgreave or maybe the Poll Tax riots fall under the same kind of use-of-force heading? Dunno.

For all the material stupidity of the Guardia Civil actions, they would argue that they were defending the State against insurrection. Meh, really.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:04 am

eric olthwaite wrote:
Devi wrote:Article 7 of the EU Treaty: "Suspension of any state that uses force against its own population"...


Yeah, seen a deal of huffin' and fuffin' on Twatter about this one - particularly from Leavers arguing that it just shows how corrupt and anti-democratic the EU is.

Clearly the 'trigger level' is ill-defined. I mean, would you not argue that police actions during Orgreave or maybe the Poll Tax riots fall under the same kind of use-of-force heading? Dunno.

For all the material stupidity of the Guardia Civil actions, they would argue that they were defending the State against insurrection. Meh, really.

The Guardia Civil were there to do a job, sent there by Rajoy's unbelievably stupid administration. They were put in an impossible position. They were obliged to carry out orders that could only inflame the situation.
The referendum was illegal, and would have been utterly pointless had it just been allowed to proceed. It didn't have even the minimum kind of guarantees that anyone would require for it to have had any meaning other than purely symbolic.
The census was years out of date, there was no way of independently verifying the votes or of counting them, the polling booths were under the control of the separatistas, the courts had declared it illegal .... The list is pretty long.
But Rajoy & co went for the most stupid reaction possible.
Send in the GC!
What The Fuck?
At this point it stops being symbolic, there is not much symbolic about rubber bullets and nightsticks.
From being the undoubted loser of the situation on Saturday, the separatists have won the day.
Before yesterday's farce there was about 40% in favour of independence, tops, the leading separatists are a ragbag mix of far left nutters, far right nutters and the most corrupt political class in Europe appealing to a romanticised Braveheart scenario that were hard to take seriously. Today they are claiming the moral high ground.
That number of 40% will inevitably have risen.
Nice one Mariano.
Before yesterday the accusation that the Spanish state was a continuation of Francoism was ridiculous.
Today it doesn't look so absurd.
The polarisation is complete. There is no talk of dialogue or trying to reach some kind of reform to the Constitution that would avoid more confrontation.
Both sides claiming victory, nobody listening to anyone else.
I have friends on both sides of the fence and they won't listen to anything that isn't reflecting their echo-chamber.

A while back I mentioned that the defining event of Spanish history was the civil war, and that the difference between a civil war and other wars is that civil wars are divisive, other wars tend to unite countries, and that the civil war is still playing out ...

Move over Mystic Meg
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Devi
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Devi » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:13 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Clearly the 'trigger level' is ill-defined. I mean, would you not argue that police actions during Orgreave or maybe the Poll Tax riots fall under the same kind of use-of-force heading?


GPWM

Mustafaster wrote:At this point it stops being symbolic, there is not much symbolic about rubber bullets and nightsticks.


But also GPWM

the separatists have won the day.


See also Scotland then, especially if Spain is turfed out of the EU and so unable to object? (Though I accept both of those outcomes are a very, very long shot, will the SNP et al be raising half a smile at the possibilities?)
I like it. What is it?

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:48 pm

The Donald, truly at his most sensitive and fully across the detail of his brief. Starts bad, doesn't improve.



Maybe wear some looser trews as well next time fucko, yeah? No wonder he wears his tie so long.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:30 pm

20 mejor companies announce they are moving their HQ out of Catalunya. Banks, energy, tech ...
La pela es la pela...
Ouch!
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Supernorm
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Supernorm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:14 am

Musta wrote:
Send in the GC!
What The Fuck?
At this point it stops being symbolic, there is not much symbolic about rubber bullets and nightsticks.


Some never learn from history, when the British government brought internment into NI, they changed the IRA from being an ill-equipped rag-bag group of hardliners with world war one pistols, into one of the best guerrilla armies the world has ever seen.

The British took heed when in Basra, by trying to win 'hearts and minds', they patrolled in berets and handed out water and chocolate bars as they went, while the Americans seen this as showing weakness. Their jackboot style of occupy and suppress, got their troops involved in some serious guerrilla warfare, which eventually spread to Basra and the rest of the country.
Gripper wrote: "I did a Shaolin Qi-Gong taster sesh a few weeks back. Dead good it was" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Mustafaster
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:38 am

Supernorm wrote:
Musta wrote:
Send in the GC!
What The Fuck?
At this point it stops being symbolic, there is not much symbolic about rubber bullets and nightsticks.


Some never learn from history, when the British government brought internment into NI, they changed the IRA from being an ill-equipped rag-bag group of hardliners with world war one pistols, into one of the best guerrilla armies the world has ever seen.

The British took heed when in Basra, by trying to win 'hearts and minds', they patrolled in berets and handed out water and chocolate bars as they went, while the Americans seen this as showing weakness. Their jackboot style of occupy and suppress, got their troops involved in some serious guerrilla warfare, which eventually spread to Basra and the rest of the country.

True.
It looks like something approaching common sense is breaking out on both sides.
UDI now looking very unlikely after the mass demonstrations over the weekend.
Dozens of major companies have moved their HQ out of Barcelona and more to follow.
The hitherto solid ranks of the independentistas are showing fissures as was always likely given how far apart they are ideologically.
If Rajoy has any sense he'll shut the fuck up and let it play out.
Give em enough rope ...
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Tommy
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Tommy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:26 am

Knowing little about the situation in Spain I was naturally sympathetic to the Catalans but I saw something that suggested almost as many, possibly even more of them don't actually want independence because financially it is probably a terrible idea. This made me wonder if it's vaguely similar to Brexit in that sense? I can't compare it to the more obvious Scottish independence vote because that ended up being a No vote.

They do have a great flag though.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Mustafaster » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:10 pm

BBC reporting on the Catalan thing is getting no better.
Given that it's probably most people's main source of information it's a bit concerning.
They try to be balanced, but the language they use to describe the situation is misleading to say the least.
Puigdemont declared illegal UDI (Junqueras pulling his strings), you'd have thought this was the "nuclear option" given it's hard to imagine anything more extreme other than outright war.
But the BBC describe Madrid triggering direct rule (which they are constitutionally obliged to do) as the nuclear option. :scratch:
Puigdemont announces UD on the back of an illegal referendum that comes nowhere near meeting the . most basic democratic norms, Ibut Madrid 's response is called a "Power grab". :shake1:
Independentistas have a rally and it's a "demonstration in favour of liberty".
Anti-inflammatory independence rallies are "provocative". :thumbd:
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:15 pm

And in the USA, the possibility of an arrest as early as tomorrow from Mueller's investigations into the Russian thing. Manafort? Ryan? Roger Stone has been in meltdown on Twitter...?


Get the popcorn on.

Edit: Ryan? Brain Fart, I meant Flynn.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Devi
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Devi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:15 pm

I like it. What is it?

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:07 pm

Roger Stone's Twitter suspended :lol:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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jackos
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby jackos » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:15 pm

Reports in Sweden saying Rick Gates has been summoned as well.

President Trump's ex-campaign manager Paul Manafort to face charges in Russia inquiry, reports say

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:38 pm

Manafort hands himself into the FBI.





I imagine somebody is beginning to shit himself.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm

Thought this thread was well worth a read.

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:35 pm

Ha. Just came on here to say Seth Abramson needs reading

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Blackwhite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:08 am

The idea that Papadopoulos has been wired and quietly recording every meeting he's attended for three months is fucking amazing if true.


This could all move very quickly. Am back in DC in a week or so, this is going to be fun. Last time but one I was there, they elected him. This time...?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The State of US/World politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:20 am

Blackwhite wrote:This could all move very quickly.


Interesting thread on the Twatter somewhere yesterday noting that during Watergate the GOP and RW press were 100% behind Nixon until a tipping point was reached where backing him became untenable and then the rug was pulled very quickly.

This time round, the thread argued, the GOP and press are both more powerful and far more partisan, so that tipping point is much further down the road. Entirely possible that Trump et al will bat this fake news back and then get rid of Mueller. I don't think it'll be over for a while yet.


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