The state of UK politics

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JimbobMaloney
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby JimbobMaloney » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:18 pm

While we're on the benefits system, what are baller's thoughts on scrapping the current system and moving on to a universal basic income?

Wakefield White
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Wakefield White » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:12 pm

I like the idea a lot. Something needs to be done to address the ever increasing automation of jobs and it removes any notion of means testing, which will please musta and black white.

A few concerns;

Does giving everyone say 25k just set a new base line for prices, effectively wiping out the benefit? A bit like how dual income families are now a necessity rather than a choice for most.

How do we organise the (millions of?) people who want to actively contribute to society and give them something meaningful to do.

How does that link in with the people who might want to chose to spend there time doing nothing, I’m thinking both socially and psychologically. How will people who want to dedicate their life to reading, mastering an art or just getting fucked up be viewed? Does it matter? How will it effect their mental health?

It would change society, I’d love to think it would be for the better.
Fuck you Rod Liddle, fuck you in your cunting fuckface you fucking third division cunt!
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:44 pm

Point of order, I've not been saying i don't agree with means testing. But as musta broke into 2 & 5 above for some reason, it's usually cost more money than it's saved. But if it can be done cheaply enough, great. For instance i don't mind the 50k taper. I do mind the two child rule.

Just to correct the record.


And yeah I struggle to see the drawback of UBI.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:05 pm

JimbobMaloney wrote:While we're on the benefits system, what are baller's thoughts on scrapping the current system and moving on to a universal basic income?


I certainly think it’s worthy of further thought / discussion / trialling. One thing I’ve noticed is that the leftier leftists I follow tend to be against UBI, and it seems to be because it offends some of the most basic worker-based / means-of-production analysis of Marxism.

From what I’ve read about trials, the notion that folk sit around on their fat arses doing nowt isn’t demonstrated: it’s more likely that they use free time and a degree of financial freedom to educate, start businesses etc.

One of the biggest concerns I’d have is that I’m not sure it can work without in some way addressing the catastrophic uk housing clusterfuck.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:59 pm

Wakefield White wrote:A few concerns;

...

How do we organise the (millions of?) people who want to actively contribute to society and give them something meaningful to do.

.

You might know, there's a possibility of some 16-25 Youth Force shenanigans, state-organised.

This would be tragic if it didn't immediately plug into existing charity and faith based work, and by the time you've read that you should, realistically, be pricing in the Tragedy, so the realistic answer is probably that you set up that group and then realise the cash would be better spent by advertising for volunteers to existing charities...

Centralism is killing us.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Vampire
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:25 am

Wakefield White wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:
Wakefield White wrote:
Why is means testing evil?

It is degrading.
It is inefficient.
It is ineffective.
It is arbitrary.
It is expensive.


Don’t see why
Can see why it might be
Don’t see why it has to be
Don’t see why it is
Can see why it might be, see point 2


Totally agree, Wakefield.

Universal benefits are just “middle class welfare.”

Providing state benefits to middle class folks who don’t need them is a waste of money and does nothing to address poverty or social injustice. Far better targeting scarce public resources on those in genuine need.

I find it ridiculous that in the UK, the poorest pensioners struggling to survive get the same State pension as a billionaire like Sir James Dyson (assuming he paid National Insurance - which is just a tax - and a very regressive one). And many of the poorest pensioners still end up being means tested anyhow for the other benefits they need.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:36 am

Middle class orthodox "economist " trashes universal income for hungry kids.
Quelle surprise.
Decades of means testing has been proved not to work, or work very badly at best.
It simply doesn't work, for a variety of reasons. Surely you can see that.
Kids go hungry, old folks die of cold.
Giving them automatic benefits is "middle class welfare".
Fucks sake Doris.
Hundreds of thousands hungry kids is not sufficient to make you rethink the orthodoxy.
Why?
Because your basic model is flawed.
It's based on behaviourist psychology , which was abandoned by every other discipline 50 years ago in favour
of cognitive models.

But you stick to the playbook ...
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Vampire
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:37 am

JimbobMaloney wrote:While we're on the benefits system, what are baller's thoughts on scrapping the current system and moving on to a universal basic income?


If you mean as a replacement for the current benefit system, see previous discussion on universal versus means tested benefits.

Because UBI is paid to everyone regardless of need, the arithmetic does become problematic. Some back of an envelope calculations:

The working population of the UK is about 30 million? You didn’t suggest an amount for UBI but Wakefield mentions £25K - so using that figure the cost is 30M x £25K = £750 Billion a year. That’s the working population so doesn’t include pensioners.

You can deduct the cost of the existing welfare system being replaced from that - but it isn’t as large as many believe. Most of it goes on services the UBI wouldn’t replace such as health, education and pensions. Just googling OBR figures I see actual working age welfare cash benefits and tax credits cost only about £90 B a year.

So UBI of £25K would cost about £660 B more than cash welfare benefits and tax credits under the current system. That’s not much less than the UK currently raises from all taxation and other public receipts in a year. So, to fund UBI of £25K you’d be looking to almost double all forms of taxation. Whereas you could double the existing means tested benefits - targeted at those who needs them most - for not much more than a tenth of that cost.

That’s just the basic arithmetic which doesn’t include any modelling of the wider economic impacts on GDP (and tax receipts) from disincentivising work, or on wages, inflation, interest rates etc.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Professor Weeto
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:17 am

I like the idea of a UBI but it would require:

A) proper, extensive rollout of automation for as many jobs as possible

B) the abandonment of ‘growth’ as the main economic goal

C) the remaining jobs being divided fairly between the population, with most people working 1-3 days a week

Obviously B) is not going to happen any time soon, and I do think that a major realignment of priorities would be needed for UBI to work, so I can’t see it happening, unfortunately.

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:23 am

Professor Weeto wrote:Obviously B) is not going to happen any time soon, and I do think that a major realignment of priorities would be needed for UBI to work, so I can’t see it happening, unfortunately.


Beg to differ.There's a growing global move toward 'happiness economics', rather than financially based. This is one of a few articles (that Im confident will be trashed by some on here), and while I agree it aint going to 'happen soon', I think that 'realignment of priorities' is well underway.
I like it. What is it?

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Professor Weeto
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Professor Weeto » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:29 am

Devi wrote:
Professor Weeto wrote:Obviously B) is not going to happen any time soon, and I do think that a major realignment of priorities would be needed for UBI to work, so I can’t see it happening, unfortunately.


Beg to differ.There's a growing global move toward 'happiness economics', rather than financially based. This is one of a few articles (that Im confident will be trashed by some on here), and while I agree it aint going to 'happen soon', I think that 'realignment of priorities' is well underway.


Don’t have time to read the article right now but I hope you’re right!

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:40 am

It's important to note that even UBI's staunchest advocates and originators don't suggest that it should provide the full sum of living costs, without additional supplements for some individuals.
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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:11 am

Jesus Christ, what a fucking cunt this woman is.


How do you end up with no fucking soul at all?

Image
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Tommy
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Tommy » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:14 am

It's going to be basically impossible not to on some level support Marcus Rashford going forward, which is going to be weird.

Wakefield White
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Wakefield White » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:18 am

He needs to demand a transfer, it’s the only option.
Fuck you Rod Liddle, fuck you in your cunting fuckface you fucking third division cunt!
(courtesy of Ponte)

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:47 am

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:04 pm

Following a period of sustained pressure through the midfield and a number of defensive howlers, a goal.

Rashford 1 - Johnson 0
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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:24 pm

Blackwhite wrote:https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1272783558462058496?s=19


Dats my MP 8)

Following the illustrious line of his predecessors Patrick Mercer (racist, sacked in a cash for lobbying scandal) and Fiona Jones (convicted though later acquitted of election spending fraud) :cheers:
Keep Fighting

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Mustafaster
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:25 pm

Jesus.
Better late than never of course, but what kind of country is it when a bloody footballer shows more sense and leadership than the prime minister?
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:31 pm

MightyWhite wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1272783558462058496?s=19


Dats my MP 8)


His Shadow is mine (Steve Reed, Croydon N.) Lots of local chat about how much fun pinning Jenrick against a resignation wall is proving.
I like it. What is it?


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