The state of UK politics

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Devi
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:15 pm
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Fri May 03, 2019 9:26 pm

I understand why I “should” stay - it’s why I have for the last few JC years!
But I can no longer validate funding a party that ignores my views (and all of the evidence showing any Brexit will fuck us), brushes its issues under the carpet, and castigates me for merely being ‘not as left’ as them.
I will not be seen as the ‘problem’, and certainly won’t pay for the privilege
I like it. What is it?

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Sat May 04, 2019 4:48 am

Corbyn interpreting Labour’s losses as a signal Labour voters want him to get on and deliver Brexit - what he’s wanted all along of course.

Jeremy Corbyn has responded to the local election results by claiming there is now a “huge impetus” to deliver Brexit.

The Labour leader told ITV News that parliament had to resolve the issue of Brexit and “get a deal done”.


So, with 70% of Labour voters backing Remain and similar numbers a second referendum, Corbyn thinks he’ll stop haemorrhaging their votes to pro Remain parties by walking into the division lobby with Theresa May to get a “compromise” Brexit deal over the line - presumably without a confirmatory vote.

Good luck with that, Jeremy - especially when the many Labour voters from Remain heartlands in London and Scotland, who didn’t vote yesterday, get their chance to join the exodus.

Corbyn’s interpretation of the results here suggests he’s either very cynical or very stupid - probably both.


And his shadow trade secretary - who recently claimed Labour is “not a Remain Party” despite the views of the vast majority of its membership, now openly admitting Labour is trying to “bail out” the Conservatives in delivering Brexit.

A Labour frontbencher has claimed that his party is trying to “bail out” the Conservatives to deliver Brexit.

In another move that has angered Remainers on social media, Labour MP Barry Gardiner said it was trying to find a compromise with the Conservatives to break the current deadlock and deliver Brexit.

Gardiner, the shadow international trade secretary, clashed with Conservative Brexit minister James Cleverly as the parties tried to interpret the votes in the local election.

“You as a Brexit minister should realise we are in there trying to bail you guys out.

“Don't tell us we're not trying to deliver Brexit, that was our manifesto commitment and we're trying to do it....

Labour MP Wes Streeting tweeted: “Labour should not bailing the Tories out.

“Any deal - any - must go to a public vote. Without a commitment to a public vote, I'll vote for a Labour-Tory deal when hell freezes over and I'm not alone in that.”

Gardiner, who previously claimed that Labour is now not a Remain party, has this week expressed concerns that it is losing Remainers after a series of member resignations.


:roll:
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Sat May 04, 2019 9:26 am

Simply unfathomable. LD gain 700 councillors and May and Corbyn blame the delay exiting the EU for their losses and are going to forge ahead to get the deal done. Pretty bloody obvious to me that the only real alternative should be to put May's deal to a referendum against remaining in the EU. What else can you do when the leaders of the main parties are disconnected from reality?

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Ponte
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 am
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Ponte » Sat May 04, 2019 9:31 am

jackos wrote:Simply unfathomable. LD gain 700 councillors and May and Corbyn blame the delay exiting the EU for their losses and are going to forge ahead to get the deal done. Pretty bloody obvious to me that the only real alternative should be to put May's deal to a referendum against remaining in the EU. What else can you do when the leaders of the main parties are disconnected from reality?

I have cancelled my membership of the Labour Party. Been considering it for a month or two but the position taken following this week’s vote has confirmed my thoughts.
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Hmmm.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby dirty leeds » Sat May 04, 2019 9:34 am

jackos wrote:Simply unfathomable.... What else can you do when the leaders of the main parties are disconnected from reality?


Exactly the problem. I guess it's no surprise that their reaction is to say/do the wrong thing, then.
I'll be voting for whomever, tactically speaking, is best placed to further my Remain ambitions. It's not clear who that might be yet.

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Sat May 04, 2019 9:38 am

Depressing as fuck. That's two posters on here who have cancelled memberships with no real electable alternative with FPTP.

What's the chance of LD becoming the main opposition party now Labour is eating itself and the Tories have given themselves over to a bunch of self serving clowns?

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Mustafaster
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Sat May 04, 2019 10:00 am

What alternative do they have?
Both main parties have been hijacked by extremist ideologues.
Brexit has shown that the current political system is totally broken, probably beyond repair.
Major change has to happen.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Sat May 04, 2019 10:34 am

Currently arguing on Facebook with a local Lab activist who is bitterly blaming defective local voters for putting Lab third behind Green and LibDems in the case of an excellent, popular local candidate who would probably have got in as an independent. I’m suggesting that she might want to re-orientate the question to ‘what’s so wrong with Labour that people won’t vote for a good candidate?’

Sigh.

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Devi
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:15 pm
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Sat May 04, 2019 11:28 am

jackos wrote:Depressing as fuck. That's two posters on here who have cancelled memberships with no real electable alternative with FPTP.

What's the chance of LD becoming the main opposition party now Labour is eating itself and the Tories have given themselves over to a bunch of self serving clowns?


I wouldnt vote for the LD's, either, TBF.

But Im intrigued as to what you suggest my options are? I've cancelled my membership, and no longer fund a party with whom I (now) profoundly disagree (at least on the Big Issue), in which I haven't had a voice for years (so no change there) and for which I can no longer campaign. Should I really carry on giving them my cash?

I accept there's no electable alternative - in terms of forming a government - but believe we'll have hung parliaments for years yet, whoever I put my X by. Maybe I'll get lucky and my vote will count; maybe I won't. Again, no change there. At least I can vote with my conscience... (and bear in mind, that as a member, promoting A.N.Other party (which I will be: any party that is overtly not just pro a 2nd ref, but even more overtly for Remain) is an expellable act. Ive simply saved them the bother of chucking me out, democrats that they are(n't).
I like it. What is it?

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Sat May 04, 2019 11:46 am

jackos wrote:Depressing as fuck. That's two posters on here who have cancelled memberships with no real electable alternative with FPTP.

What's the chance of LD becoming the main opposition party now Labour is eating itself and the Tories have given themselves over to a bunch of self serving clowns?


Depends whether the next GE is pre- or post- resolution (whatever that is) of Brexit, I’d suggest. If the next election is pre, LDs have to be in with a shout of causing real damage. If the election is post, you’d say that:

- We’re out of Europe, lots of Leavers will return to the Tories and Lab making numbers harder for LDs.
- We decide to remain, remainers’ll return to Tories and Lab too.

In short LDs can only thrive with a strong UKIP / Brexit showing damaging both parties and the two main parties in disarray.

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Sat May 04, 2019 12:10 pm

Saw this in today’s Sydney Morning Herald:

Sunday Times political ace Tim Shipman recalled that "at one election someone wrote 'c---' against every candidate bar one, [and] the Lib Dems successfully argued that it was a vote for them".

There is no better metaphor for what just happened in British politics.


:lol:
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby jackos » Sat May 04, 2019 12:34 pm

Devi wrote:But Im intrigued as to what you suggest my options are? I've cancelled my membership, and no longer fund a party with whom I (now) profoundly disagree (at least on the Big Issue), in which I haven't had a voice for years (so no change there) and for which I can no longer campaign. Should I really carry on giving them my cash?


Given the way politics is going I guess any of us only has two options. 1) Say fuck it and concentrate on what's good for ourselves and our own. 2) Become more active, get involved locally and try encourage like minded people to get more involved. The problem with the later is that all you need these days to affect the future of Labour is 5 quid and an internet connection.

I'm kinda hoping Corbyn will get hit by a bus and his fans will find another toy to play with. You don't have an HGV license do you?

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Sat May 04, 2019 2:01 pm

In fairness, a lot of Corbyn’s policies score highly with the public. But all of that is outweighed by his management of Brexit and his own party. My fear is that the approach to getting rid of Corbyn could well result in a swing to the right such that the party becomes irrelevant again.

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Sat May 04, 2019 2:28 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:In fairness, a lot of Corbyn’s policies score highly with the public. But all of that is outweighed by his management of Brexit and his own party. My fear is that the approach to getting rid of Corbyn could well result in a swing to the right such that the party becomes irrelevant again.


“Irrelevant again?

Regardless of the hostile hard left narrative on the Blair/Brown years (and indeed different but equally hostile narratives by the Conservative Party and right wing press), those Governments managed the UK economy well and were therefore able to deliver for their core constituency: record investment in the NHS and schools; welfare and working tax credits for the poor (which they never shouted about for fear of provoking a right wing backlash); and extra support for the elderly. The big blot on the record was the Iraq War - but on economic and social policy they solidly delivered for their people. “Corbyn’s policies” (read wish list of promises) in contrast will never deliver outcomes for his core support even if he gets elected (which is highly doubtful even competing against the worst UK Government in living memory) because his economic policy can’t fund them.

And as for Corbynites trashing those Governments with references to spin, I think even Alistair Campbell would blush at the phrase “a job’s first Brexit.” And staged managed conferences/not upholding party democracy? The critique is looking pretty hypocritical now.

You’ll never get everything you want in politics and no Government will ever be perfect or not make mistakes - but jeez those UK Labour Governments look good compared with what you have on offer today.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

Yeboah
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Yeboah » Sat May 04, 2019 4:22 pm


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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Vampire » Sun May 05, 2019 6:11 am

Inreresting piece from a Sunderland MP on the Misinterpretation of the Sunderland Result by the Lexiteers.



If you believe in the mythical version of Sunderland that many in the London media seem to think is real, it’s a sort of post-industrial wasteland populated entirely by men aged in their 50s and 60s who are former miners and dislike the European Union. Too many journalists come here with their story already written, their minds made up, and they don’t spend much time listening.......

They look at seats, but not votes, and stop asking questions. But in the real modern city of Sunderland, the Green Party picked up their first ever seat, while the local Liberal Democrats had a good night too. It was the day Sunderland’s remain-backing Labour supporters – and there are lots of them because the city’s a big place where more people voted remain than in Cambridge – gave us a bloody nose and showed us their support is not unconditional. Even where Ukip won seats it was because the Labour vote went off to the Greens, the Lib Dems or stayed at home, rather than turning to the far right......

That pattern held across England – both Labour and the Tories saw votes that have previously been cast for them move elsewhere, above all to the parties that want us to stay in the EU. Parties that have advocated some form of deal that involves leaving the EU – the Tories and Labour – were punished across the country. They lost seats and they lost votes.

So the notion that the electorate was giving a message to the Labour leadership that they need to hurry up and deliver a deal to take us out of the European Union is lazy and ridiculous. It is also a calculated insult to the intelligence of every Labour supporter, every Labour member and every wavering voter who believes our country’s interests are best served by staying in the EU.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Sun May 05, 2019 7:42 am

Stories in the press this morning suggesting Tory faithful view a deal with Labour as likely to lead to the "annihilation" of the Tory party.

Even if it led to the loss of, what, maybe a third of Labour's vote, would I be prepared to accept a soft Brexit in exchange for the death of the Conservatives, and the exit from political life of a few of the key cunts?


Yeah, probably, sadly. Kill it and move on.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

rss1969
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby rss1969 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:37 am

Vampire wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:In fairness, a lot of Corbyn’s policies score highly with the public. But all of that is outweighed by his management of Brexit and his own party. My fear is that the approach to getting rid of Corbyn could well result in a swing to the right such that the party becomes irrelevant again.


“Irrelevant again?

Regardless of the hostile hard left narrative on the Blair/Brown years (and indeed different but equally hostile narratives by the Conservative Party and right wing press), those Governments managed the UK economy well and were therefore able to deliver for their core constituency: record investment in the NHS and schools; welfare and working tax credits for the poor (which they never shouted about for fear of provoking a right wing backlash); and extra support for the elderly. The big blot on the record was the Iraq War - but on economic and social policy they solidly delivered for their people. “Corbyn’s policies” (read wish list of promises) in contrast will never deliver outcomes for his core support even if he gets elected (which is highly doubtful even competing against the worst UK Government in living memory) because his economic policy can’t fund them.

And as for Corbynites trashing those Governments with references to spin, I think even Alistair Campbell would blush at the phrase “a job’s first Brexit.” And staged managed conferences/not upholding party democracy? The critique is looking pretty hypocritical now.

You’ll never get everything you want in politics and no Government will ever be perfect or not make mistakes - but jeez those UK Labour Governments look good compared with what you have on offer today.


Excellent post.

The Blair era was the most effective all round progressive set of policies put into force in my lifetime. I cannot see that we will ever have leadership again that got so much right for the public as a whole.

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Mustafaster
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Sun May 05, 2019 8:56 am

Blair was in the right place at the right time. A very important skill.
His administration coincided with the brief golden period between the collapse of communism in the USSR and the collapse of capitalism in 2008.
He did a number of good things, above all getting the GFA over the line.
He did well in investing in health and education, Sure Start was a great initiative.
There's two really massive problems with Blair's time.
1 PFI. Just terrible.
2. Iraq. Unforgivable.
Both arose from his terminal hubris, thinking he was some kind of messiah of a new Golden Age.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Mon May 06, 2019 7:31 am

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.


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