The state of UK politics

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:58 am

And while Brexit occupies the tiny minds of the Conservative party, they fail to do even the tiniest thing right.

Something truly remarkable happened last night in the House of Commons: facing a rebellion by pro-Brexit Conservatives in the European Research Group, the government U-turned on plans to ban assault rifles, amending its own legislation to strip references to the dangerous devices from the Offensive Weapons Bill.


Although the United Kingdom already has fairly tight restrictions on who can own and use firearms outside Northern Ireland, and heavy restrictions on how much ammo can be bought, the police have asked for these new restrictions to help get new and dangerous hardware off the street.


There are a couple of really striking political sub-plots here: the first, of course, is that it is indicative of how dysfunctional this Parliament has become. The government can’t even – in a country in which support for gun control is near-universal, when a ban has been called for by the police, when there is notionally cross-party support for the measure – successfully ban assault rifles.

But the second is that it is a strikingly bad strategic choice on the part of the following groups: the European Research Group, Theresa May’s government, and Conservative backbenchers.

On the part of the ERG, it risks associating support for Brexit – a political proposition commanding at a minimum the support of 45 per cent of the country – with support for easy access to firearms, a position that in the United Kingdom is associated with far-right wingnuts from the United States. It’s a political position, rather like May’s embrace of ending the fox hunting ban, with the potential to travel far and wide online during the heat of an election or referendum campaign, with potentially disastrous consequences for the longterm political viability of the Brexit project. To my surprise, none of the organised Remain campaigns have tried to piggyback on the association or make capital out of the fact that every leading Brexiteer can now perfectly fairly be described as having opposed measures to remove assault rifles from our streets, but it can only be a matter of time.

As for Theresa May and her government, the Prime Minister was handed a big, shiny gift from her internal opponents. Trying to pass the ban with the support of Labour was a win-win proposition. In the worst case scenario, if Labour had refused to back the bill, it would have associated both her internal opponents and the Labour Party with a highly unpopular cause that will be very, very difficult to defend. In each case it would have reinforced a dangerous weakness in the brands of both sides: on the part of committed Eurosceptics, that there is something eccentric and dangerous about Tory Brexiteers, and on the part of Labour, that their heart in the right place but they can’t be relied upon to “do the right thing” when it comes to crime and security. Every sitting Labour MP in a marginal seat could have had targeted Facebook adverts in their constituency saying they had voted against the wishes of the police and in favour of easy access to assault rifles. There is an open question about whether the Conservatives are better off trying to win back places like Kensington or Battersea or trying to do a bit better in the likes of Bishop Auckland and Ashfield and that often involves difficult political trade-offs. But gun control is popular – wildly popular – everywhere in the United Kingdom.


Or, in the best case scenario, Labour votes with the government and Theresa May would have successfully banned assault rifles. What’s not to like? Instead, May went for Option 3) give your opponents a legitimate reason to put the name of every Conservative MP and the phrase “voted against banning assault rifles” together on one leaflet or shareable video.

But – and here’s the really striking thing – as well as securing the support of the ERG, every Conservative MP went along with the vote. Of course, every Tory MP I have spoken to privately is mystified by the decision, but for the most part, the politics makes short-term sense: they are in safe seats where the issue is not going to cause immediate harm. That said, one can easily imagine how at some future election, any of James Cleverly, Penny Mordaunt or Nigel Huddlestone, either as a boxfresh opposition leader or as Prime Minister, will wake up to discover that a Momentum video on their opposition to banning assault rifles (pegged perhaps to some hypothetical future shooting) has gone viral on Facebook overnight. But it’s not just future prospects. Take say, Jake Berry, Ben Bradley or Jack Brereton, all of whom are in marginal seats, and all of whom opted to vote against assault rifles. To repeat: gun control is popular everywhere in the United Kingdom, and assault rifles are popular nowhere in the United Kingdom.

This was a political choice with the difficulty turned all the way down to “casual” and yet somehow it ended up with the Conservatives opting to take political damage.

We haven’t really paid much attention to this vote because of the ongoing Brexit chaos, but I would suggest that we should precisely because of the ongoing stand-off. The underlying assumption that we have about no deal is that it won’t happen because it is politically damaging and ultimately it would be an astonishing failure of political strategy and intelligence if we left the United Kingdom without a deal essentially by mistake. A no-deal exit will be a far bigger political event than voting against banning assault rifles, but that Conservative MPs just failed to navigate a far easier political trade-off is a reminder that we can’t guarantee they will successfully avoid no deal.
The police wanted a total ban on 50 cal weapons because there's nothing that can be armoured against a terrorist with one in hand. Not sure if that part survived on the final Bill... But never mind that shit, let's argue about unicorns.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Rambo the randy pig
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Rambo the randy pig » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:06 pm

Blackwhite wrote:And while Brexit occupies the tiny minds of the Conservative party, they fail to do even the tiniest thing right.

Something truly remarkable happened last night in the House of Commons: facing a rebellion by pro-Brexit Conservatives in the European Research Group, the government U-turned on plans to ban assault rifles, amending its own legislation to strip references to the dangerous devices from the Offensive Weapons Bill.


Although the United Kingdom already has fairly tight restrictions on who can own and use firearms outside Northern Ireland, and heavy restrictions on how much ammo can be bought, the police have asked for these new restrictions to help get new and dangerous hardware off the street.


There are a couple of really striking political sub-plots here: the first, of course, is that it is indicative of how dysfunctional this Parliament has become. The government can’t even – in a country in which support for gun control is near-universal, when a ban has been called for by the police, when there is notionally cross-party support for the measure – successfully ban assault rifles.

But the second is that it is a strikingly bad strategic choice on the part of the following groups: the European Research Group, Theresa May’s government, and Conservative backbenchers.

On the part of the ERG, it risks associating support for Brexit – a political proposition commanding at a minimum the support of 45 per cent of the country – with support for easy access to firearms, a position that in the United Kingdom is associated with far-right wingnuts from the United States. It’s a political position, rather like May’s embrace of ending the fox hunting ban, with the potential to travel far and wide online during the heat of an election or referendum campaign, with potentially disastrous consequences for the longterm political viability of the Brexit project. To my surprise, none of the organised Remain campaigns have tried to piggyback on the association or make capital out of the fact that every leading Brexiteer can now perfectly fairly be described as having opposed measures to remove assault rifles from our streets, but it can only be a matter of time.

As for Theresa May and her government, the Prime Minister was handed a big, shiny gift from her internal opponents. Trying to pass the ban with the support of Labour was a win-win proposition. In the worst case scenario, if Labour had refused to back the bill, it would have associated both her internal opponents and the Labour Party with a highly unpopular cause that will be very, very difficult to defend. In each case it would have reinforced a dangerous weakness in the brands of both sides: on the part of committed Eurosceptics, that there is something eccentric and dangerous about Tory Brexiteers, and on the part of Labour, that their heart in the right place but they can’t be relied upon to “do the right thing” when it comes to crime and security. Every sitting Labour MP in a marginal seat could have had targeted Facebook adverts in their constituency saying they had voted against the wishes of the police and in favour of easy access to assault rifles. There is an open question about whether the Conservatives are better off trying to win back places like Kensington or Battersea or trying to do a bit better in the likes of Bishop Auckland and Ashfield and that often involves difficult political trade-offs. But gun control is popular – wildly popular – everywhere in the United Kingdom.


Or, in the best case scenario, Labour votes with the government and Theresa May would have successfully banned assault rifles. What’s not to like? Instead, May went for Option 3) give your opponents a legitimate reason to put the name of every Conservative MP and the phrase “voted against banning assault rifles” together on one leaflet or shareable video.

But – and here’s the really striking thing – as well as securing the support of the ERG, every Conservative MP went along with the vote. Of course, every Tory MP I have spoken to privately is mystified by the decision, but for the most part, the politics makes short-term sense: they are in safe seats where the issue is not going to cause immediate harm. That said, one can easily imagine how at some future election, any of James Cleverly, Penny Mordaunt or Nigel Huddlestone, either as a boxfresh opposition leader or as Prime Minister, will wake up to discover that a Momentum video on their opposition to banning assault rifles (pegged perhaps to some hypothetical future shooting) has gone viral on Facebook overnight. But it’s not just future prospects. Take say, Jake Berry, Ben Bradley or Jack Brereton, all of whom are in marginal seats, and all of whom opted to vote against assault rifles. To repeat: gun control is popular everywhere in the United Kingdom, and assault rifles are popular nowhere in the United Kingdom.

This was a political choice with the difficulty turned all the way down to “casual” and yet somehow it ended up with the Conservatives opting to take political damage.

We haven’t really paid much attention to this vote because of the ongoing Brexit chaos, but I would suggest that we should precisely because of the ongoing stand-off. The underlying assumption that we have about no deal is that it won’t happen because it is politically damaging and ultimately it would be an astonishing failure of political strategy and intelligence if we left the United Kingdom without a deal essentially by mistake. A no-deal exit will be a far bigger political event than voting against banning assault rifles, but that Conservative MPs just failed to navigate a far easier political trade-off is a reminder that we can’t guarantee they will successfully avoid no deal.
The police wanted a total ban on 50 cal weapons because there's nothing that can be armoured against a terrorist with one in hand. Not sure if that part survived on the final Bill... But never mind that shit, let's argue about unicorns.


The proposal that was dropped was, I believe, to ban weapons with a muzzle energy of greater than 13,600 joules. This is in the main .50 calibre rifles. Very few other weapons even come close to that sort of muzzle velocity. I find the reference to assault riles to be a bit misleading. Most .50 calibre rifles available in this country are specialist target rifles costing a packet. To me an assault rifle is a semi auto ar15 type or if .50 calibre the type of military hardware available overseas but not in this country (before anyone chimes up I know semi auto ar15 type rifles are legal in .22 rimfire). i just want to draw the distinction between an assault rifle of the type we see in films and videos and what is legally available. Banning legally held weapons to prevent criminals obtaining them won't stop them getting hold of weapons which are currently available.

Having said that I, as a shooter, can't see any reason why anyone would want to legally own a rifle with as much power as 13,600 joules muzzle energy. It's so far in excess of the muzzle energy of most other rifles as to be almost ridiculous. On one hand I oppose too many further controls as we already have very restrictive firearms control and one day it's banning this, next it will be another and before we know it they'll all be banned. On the other hand I see no purpose in these ridiculously high power rifles. It's a very niche area in shooting because of the cost and also the limitations of such weapons.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:11 pm

I completely get your point, and can't believe they're prepared to sacrifice such a sensible move for party political oh who am I kidding, it's England 2018...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:16 pm

Completely unacceptable of Corbyn to call Maybot a "stupid woman". There's no need to let anger prevent you from correctly insulting her as an incompetent fucktard cunt.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: The state of UK politics

Postby the flying pig » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:06 pm

i'm undecided on whether or not it matters that he used that label but fairly clear that he did.

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:54 pm

the flying pig wrote:i'm undecided on whether or not it matters that he used that label but fairly clear that he did.

only matters when it's Labour. /Leeds.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Oheddieeddie
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Oheddieeddie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:22 pm

I find it incredible that Corbyn can just deny what he said. In a way that lie is worse than the offence

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Mustafaster
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:57 pm

Oheddieeddie wrote:I find it incredible that Corbyn can just deny what he said. In a way that lie is worse than the offence

I find it Incredible that your country is about to self immolate .... and you're worried about whether he's said "woman" or " people" or what colour tie somebody wears.

Iceberg dead ahead,Cap'n.
Very well, tell the band to play something jolly!
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Oheddieeddie
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Oheddieeddie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:57 am

Mustafaster wrote:
Oheddieeddie wrote:I find it incredible that Corbyn can just deny what he said. In a way that lie is worse than the offence

I find it Incredible that your country is about to self immolate .... and you're worried about whether he's said "woman" or " people" or what colour tie somebody wears.
!


It's alright musta, I'm capable of having thoughts about 2 loosely related but differing things, at the same time. :D

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:30 am

I couldn't give a shit that he said stupid woman (she is). I give a massive shit that the guy allegedly in charge of getting Labour back into government is so patently incapable of getting through a day without shooting himself - and party prospects - in both feet.

He's stupid enough to mutter anything with that number of cameras?
He's stupid enough to agree with whoever suggested 'people' is phonetically on the same planet as 'woman'.
He's stupid enough to stand in parliament and deny he said it.

Sure fire vote winning, there, JC... What should have been a(other) slam dunk of a PMQs, in which you were already being beaten hands down by a lame-duck PM, is royally screwed up by your endless ineptitude.

Stupid man.
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Yeboah » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:06 pm

Devi wrote:I couldn't give a shit that he said stupid woman (she is). I give a massive shit that the guy allegedly in charge of getting Labour back into government is so patently incapable of getting through a day without shooting himself - and party prospects - in both feet.

He's stupid enough to mutter anything with that number of cameras?
He's stupid enough to agree with whoever suggested 'people' is phonetically on the same planet as 'woman'.
He's stupid enough to stand in parliament and deny he said it.

Sure fire vote winning, there, JC... What should have been a(other) slam dunk of a PMQs, in which you were already being beaten hands down by a lame-duck PM, is royally screwed up by your endless ineptitude.

Stupid man.


Doesn't matter what he says or does, he's never getting in anyway. Lots of stupid people in the UK but thankfully not that many.

Andymac-47
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Andymac-47 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:46 pm



Im not even surprised.
Andymac

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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:20 pm

Who gives a shit though, really?
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:51 pm

MightyWhite wrote:Who gives a shit though, really?


At the obvious risk of sounding like a pompous fuck, the reason democracy ceases to function properly is because the majority of people make statements like this.

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:09 pm

That’s as may be.

I’m still interested in the ‘biggest Doner’...
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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:14 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:
MightyWhite wrote:Who gives a shit though, really?


At the obvious risk of sounding like a pompous fuck, the reason democracy ceases to function properly is because the majority of people make statements like this.


I was referring to the Bamford connection, I may have perhaps missed the point....
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby FredFlintstone » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:11 pm

More pure gold from Marina Hyde today:

"In the end, though, neither of these posturing inadequates was sufficient to distract from Chris Grayling. This government is now so inanimate it doesn’t have a spirit animal; it has a spirit vegetable. Unless Grayling’s a mineral, which I’ll increasingly accept."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/04/no-deal-brexit-dragons-den-chris-grayling-javid-tory

:study:

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Blackwhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 am

:salute:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Devi
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Devi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:41 am

Wondering if JC has called his ‘friends’ at Sinn Fein to see if they’re anywhere near Westminster this evening...
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:45 pm

Devi wrote:Wondering if JC has called his ‘friends’ at Sinn Fein to see if they’re anywhere near Westminster this evening...


Not allowed, are they? They didn't sign the oath, or gargle swan's blood whilst standing blindfold on one leg, or whatever it is the fuck you have to do.


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