The state of UK politics

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eric olthwaite
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The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 8:43 am

Ulp.

Someone has to dive in, sooner or later. Yes, I'm coming from left wing position. I probably call myself a socialist, depending on who is defining that term.

I'm not going to say that UKIP voters are all racists. I'm going to suggest that there is such a deep-seated sense of disenfranchisement with existing political parties that this inevitably becomes manifest in voting for anyone who appears willing to challenge the status quo, even if more than a few of them appear batshit crazy.

I think this sums it up fairly well.

I'm ambivalent about membership of the EU - I'm waiting to be persuaded either way - but all this 'we're run from Brussels' bullshit is a complete crock. Is the EU privatising the NHS, butchering education, changing the pensionable age? Are they fuck.

Anyway, scary times. If the reaction of both Con and Lab, prior to the next election, is to continue to pursue the 'get tough on immigration' line, they will lose and everyone will vote UKIP. It's going to be ugly.

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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Fri May 23, 2014 8:55 am

I'm actually surprised by your reasonable response to the latest situation, Eric. I was expecting you to be coming out pissing fire :lol:

I've mentioned before that I'm very non-political, so I look on at this whole UKIP situation with an air of uninformed neutrality. I look at Facebook, comments pages, forums, etc and see the way that some of 'The Left' speak about UKIP and the likes and I wonder who really are the 'intolerant' ones. So much bile and crass generalisations about people who clearly have genuine grievances - however misinformed they may be - about what's going on in the country.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:03 am

MightyWhite wrote:I'm actually surprised by your reasonable response to the latest situation, Eric. I was expecting you to be coming out pissing fire :lol:

I've mentioned before that I'm very non-political, so I look on at this whole UKIP situation with an air of uninformed neutrality. I look at Facebook, comments pages, forums, etc and see the way that some of 'The Left' speak about UKIP and the likes and I wonder who really are the 'intolerant' ones. So much bile and crass generalisations about people who clearly have genuine grievances - however misinformed they may be - about what's going on in the country.


What I find interesting is talking to my work colleagues. I'm one of only a couple who live outside the M25. I don't think UKIP gained a single seat in London and they don't seem to regard them as a serious concern. I take that to reflect the insularity of Westminster politics also.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:24 am

Just told one my fellow directors to, 'Piss off, ya Dutch bastard, you're not welcome here anymore'. He's not sure if I'm joking :mrgreen:

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gazurtoids
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby gazurtoids » Fri May 23, 2014 9:34 am

MightyWhite wrote:I'm actually surprised by your reasonable response to the latest situation, Eric. I was expecting you to be coming out pissing fire :lol:

I've mentioned before that I'm very non-political, so I look on at this whole UKIP situation with an air of uninformed neutrality. I look at Facebook, comments pages, forums, etc and see the way that some of 'The Left' speak about UKIP and the likes and I wonder who really are the 'intolerant' ones. So much bile and crass generalisations about people who clearly have genuine grievances - however misinformed they may be - about what's going on in the country.


You're not really equating intolerance of political views and racial intolerance, are you?

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Dale White
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Dale White » Fri May 23, 2014 9:35 am

My thick as shit brother in law is a UKIP convert, he got a major surprise when he turned up to vote for them yesterday in the locals and found they had not put up a candidate :lol: a fact I told him 4 weeks ago. He still voted for them in the EU elections though where they cant effect any change because they don't turn up to vote, he couldn't grasp that either.
FUCK OFF BATES !!!

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:37 am

gazurtoids wrote:
MightyWhite wrote:I'm actually surprised by your reasonable response to the latest situation, Eric. I was expecting you to be coming out pissing fire :lol:

I've mentioned before that I'm very non-political, so I look on at this whole UKIP situation with an air of uninformed neutrality. I look at Facebook, comments pages, forums, etc and see the way that some of 'The Left' speak about UKIP and the likes and I wonder who really are the 'intolerant' ones. So much bile and crass generalisations about people who clearly have genuine grievances - however misinformed they may be - about what's going on in the country.


You're not really equating intolerance of political views and racial intolerance, are you?


Yeah, I was going to come back to that too. Classic failed Pastor Niemoller argument. I'm very intolerant of cunts.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:38 am

Dale White wrote:My thick as shit brother in law is a UKIP convert, he got a major surprise when he turned up to vote for them yesterday in the locals and found they had not put up a candidate :lol: a fact I told him 4 weeks ago. He still voted for them in the EU elections though where they cant effect any change because they don't turn up to vote, he couldn't grasp that either.


This is exactly what I've been trying to explain to similarly retarded cunts.

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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:45 am

gazurtoids wrote:
MightyWhite wrote:I'm actually surprised by your reasonable response to the latest situation, Eric. I was expecting you to be coming out pissing fire :lol:

I've mentioned before that I'm very non-political, so I look on at this whole UKIP situation with an air of uninformed neutrality. I look at Facebook, comments pages, forums, etc and see the way that some of 'The Left' speak about UKIP and the likes and I wonder who really are the 'intolerant' ones. So much bile and crass generalisations about people who clearly have genuine grievances - however misinformed they may be - about what's going on in the country.


You're not really equating intolerance of political views and racial intolerance, are you?


Pretty much.

The accusations against UKIP supporters is that they're uninformed/stupid. Do you think half of these people who immediately scream RACIST (a pretty serious thing to call anyone in modern British society) has taken one second to actually consider why individuals feel disenfranchised? Is it that much different to a UKIP supporter who thinks all immigrants are spongers/terrorists? It's all pig headed, closed minded bollocks at the end of the day.
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby Son of Leeds » Fri May 23, 2014 9:47 am

UKIP are sort of important.

This is what happened.

Immigration increased in this country as the Labour Party moved to the centre on the grounds that traditional voters had nowhere else to go. The evidence suggested that it created a net gain, both economically and culturally. However, this overlooked the problem of dispersal: most immigrants congregated where the poorest Britains lived. To professionals, wooed by apparent New Labour competence, this was not a problem, but it was a legitimate concern for those who saw the influx 'on their doorstep'. While the alternative to the main parties was the BNP, this made little difference, most Brits, even the poor and frightened, being more or less decent.

Immigration became a national issue, however,when news came out of gross inefficiently in the Home Office over the managing of asylum seekers. The Redtops latched upon this, and reported immigration as the national threat the main parties did little about The real problem of dispersal, however, was still not addressed, and instead of being interpreted as a class issue it became a culture war between liberalism/traditional, tolerantance/prejudice.

UKIP under Kilroy-Silk was part of the culture wars. Farage's insight was to relate it more concretely to the concerns of the significant majority who saw an actual downside to their quality of life under immigration and to link the EU policy of the free movement of labour to it. The fear of Islamic terrorism provided the oil, as it were, to this fire, and the 2008 financial mess added the coal. The Eurozone crisis added a draught to fan the flames. The feeling grew that the main political parties were arguing over grand designs, while ignoring the immediate threats.

Thus, a macro-economic outlook in favour of globalisation at a time when the poorest were taking the hits in local areas, left it feeling ignored. Step forward plain-thinking, fag smoking, beer drinking, jolly old Nigel with his contempt for the main parties.

It is not a surprise that this combination of tabloid commercial imperative, political atrophy, crisis in globalisation and year on rises in immigration should produce a UKIP surge.

There are also profound historical reasons why Britain is Euro-sceptic.

The question is: will it make a difference, do harm, or good? In some ways good: it might be the kick up the arse that the main parties and the EU need - assuming other Euro-sceptic parties do well - to make a proper analysis of the failings of the global free market ideology. On the other hand, it might go all knee-jerk and make inadequate concessions to keep the flaws in the system going.

That the problem is not the EU and immigration alone should be clear by the contradiction in the philosophies of those making the loudest UKIP noises, UKIP itself and the Conservative right. In principle, they believe in small government and free markets. Yet their policies on the EU and immigration are actually interventionist policies that insist on limiting the rights of businesses to employ whomever they wish, and to take the monitoring of the free trade zone in Europe from a non-national body to the national one. The deep problem of the UK is weak productivity: this has been the case for decades. British workers either work less or less efficiently than the competition - the latter more than the first. Free market principles propose that the last thing you do to improve efficiency is limit the competition.

This contradiction tells us that the real issue is not actually the things talked about. It is in reality a fight between the large corporations that benefit from globalisation and those who work only within the internal market: unskilled labourers, small businesses, and pensioners, whose place in the global market through pension funds would not be harmed by UKIP policies (until they realised they have raised their taxes).

Hope that helps.
Leeds United is ruining my life.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 9:55 am

Son of Leeds wrote:The deep problem of the UK is weak productivity: this has been the case for decades. British workers either work less or less efficiently than the competition - the latter more than the first.


Statistical evidence please. Otherwise I'm calling bullshit on that.

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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby hasitgoneup » Fri May 23, 2014 10:02 am

What I find truly shocking is the apparent collapse in the Libdem vote. I say this not as a Libdem voter but as someone who respects courage. Like many, I watched the recent debate between Farage and Clegg and I thought that Clegg, even though he lost the debate, had pulled off the best political manoeuvre of recent times.

Clegg stood up to the plate and argued his position passionately; he effectively made a straight choice for the voting public. If you’re anti Europe vote for Ukip, if you’re pro Europe vote Libdem. Given that neither Cameron nor Milliband had the courage to attend the debate you would expect Clegg to have cleaned up. I know some would argue that Clegg has lost trust (what a Politian that tells lies, heaven forbid!) but I genuinely think that many of the public, once presented with the debate, realise that they are supporting parties whose views are totally different from their own.

Why do people continue to vote conservative or labour when both have utterly betrayed their own core vote? All they are bothered about is the middle ground. What the Farage/Clegg debate did was to offer the voter a genuine choice, But many appear to have voted for parties who don’t even want the voter to know what their opinions are.

Btw, I know that the European results aren’t in yet, but it’s clear what is going to happen.
Let our advance worrying become advance thinking and planning.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 10:03 am

In fact, the more I read that analysis SoL, the more I'd say much of it is shite.

The issue is the rapidly and ever increasing inequality between rich and poor. People need someone to blame and it present it's the EU and foreigners. If UKIP eventually take power, we leave Europe and immigrants leave, the poor will still be increasingly fucked. It'd be interesting to see what would happen then.

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thestraw
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby thestraw » Fri May 23, 2014 10:12 am

Dale White wrote:My thick as shit brother in law is a UKIP convert, he got a major surprise when he turned up to vote for them yesterday in the locals and found they had not put up a candidate :lol: a fact I told him 4 weeks ago. He still voted for them in the EU elections though where they cant effect any change because they don't turn up to vote, he couldn't grasp that either.

I would argue that the Tories and Labour similarly cant effect change within the EU either - and this is the problem. Voting for UKIP in the Euro elections is seen by many as a protest vote against the power/role of the EU . I doubt many of them would vote UKIP in the general election to run the UK, as most folk know their policies are shit, and they are a little crazy.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 10:31 am

thestraw wrote:I would argue that the Tories and Labour similarly cant effect change within the EU either - and this is the problem


Not incorrect. Which is why I voted Green: just because the local Green MEP has a reasonably decent, sensible voting record. It's all you can do, for now.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 10:34 am

By the by, but I took the eldest to vote for the first time yesterday. She said, 'If not enough people vote, why not enter all voters in a lottery to win a million quid'.

I'm still thinking about it. It's daft, but I'm not sure it's actually all that bad an idea.

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AndyPaul
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby AndyPaul » Fri May 23, 2014 10:57 am

eric olthwaite wrote:By the by, but I took the eldest to vote for the first time yesterday. She said, 'If not enough people vote, why not enter all voters in a lottery to win a million quid'.

I'm still thinking about it. It's daft, but I'm not sure it's actually all that bad an idea.


Not a totally daft idea. The risk is that people would put a cross next to whoever with know understanding of who they voted for just so they could get in the draw.

However, I have never voted. My voting card goes straight in the shredder, the political leaflets go straight into the recycling.

Would I vote if there was the possibility of some financial reward? Yes I would.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri May 23, 2014 11:21 am

AndyPaul wrote:However, I have never voted. My voting card goes straight in the shredder, the political leaflets go straight into the recycling.


We've been here before, but You Fucking Cunt.

You were granted the extraordinary privilege of being born in a safe, wealthy, tolerant democracy. The fewer who vote, the easier it becomes for that privilege you enjoy to be taken from you by extremists.

If you spoil your ballot paper as an abstention, that's a perfectly legitimate position. Not voting at all, in my opinion, is not.

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AndyPaul
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby AndyPaul » Fri May 23, 2014 11:27 am

eric olthwaite wrote:
AndyPaul wrote:However, I have never voted. My voting card goes straight in the shredder, the political leaflets go straight into the recycling.


We've been here before, but You Fucking Cunt.

You were granted the extraordinary privilege of being born in a safe, wealthy, tolerant democracy. The fewer who vote, the easier it becomes for that privilege you enjoy to be taken from you by extremists.

If you spoil your ballot paper as an abstention, that's a perfectly legitimate position. Not voting at all, in my opinion, is not.


I can understand that view.

I just look at politicians and see no difference, I don't believe anything they say and think they'll do the same thing given the chance.

Tories blame Labour for the financial mess they have to sort out, well I'd say if the Tories were in power then it would be the same situation.

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MightyWhite
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Re: The state of UK politics

Postby MightyWhite » Fri May 23, 2014 11:33 am

AndyPaul wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:
AndyPaul wrote:However, I have never voted. My voting card goes straight in the shredder, the political leaflets go straight into the recycling.


We've been here before, but You Fucking Cunt.

You were granted the extraordinary privilege of being born in a safe, wealthy, tolerant democracy. The fewer who vote, the easier it becomes for that privilege you enjoy to be taken from you by extremists.

If you spoil your ballot paper as an abstention, that's a perfectly legitimate position. Not voting at all, in my opinion, is not.


I can understand that view.

I just look at politicians and see no difference, I don't believe anything they say and think they'll do the same thing given the chance.

Tories blame Labour for the financial mess they have to sort out, well I'd say if the Tories were in power then it would be the same situation.


My views exactly. I do tend to vote though, mainly out of duty as much as anything. That said the bloke I voted for has just jacked in due to accepting cash for questions, so that turned out well :lol:
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