O/T: Fracking etc.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Jailhouse John wrote:Mustafaster

That MIT report was interesting in that it confirmed that there has been zero evidence of well completion chemicals entering an adjacent water aquifer and only some minor evidence of methane gas entering water aquifers from Operators who appear to be real cowboys.

John, I can find dozens and dozens of attested cases of chemical filtration into water supplies in the States. You must be aware of them if you work in the industry. Any fool can google the topic and come up with loads of examples.

These "cowboys" are companies like Halliburton, not one man in his backyard. More worrying for me is the refusal of companies like Halliburton to reveal what chemicals they are putting into the ground, claiming "commercial secercy" and likening their position to Coca Cola and their secret formula. I'm sorry, but that analogy is sophistry of the worst kind.
Jailhouse John wrote:The fact that completion chemicals have not migrated is by far the most important fact that should be taken on board. The procedures that will be imposed on any of the companies looking to 'Frack' in the UK will be absolutely immense - there is far too much at stake for the government to allow any screw ups of any sort and I am confident this will take away any cowboy element from the developments.

How many times have we heard this from the industry? Strict controls, regulation, total confidence, no screw ups allowed .... until the next time, and it will be a freak accident. Exxon Valdez, Prestige, Deepwater Horizon, Piper Alpha ... The industry's crediblity is zero, I'm afraid
Jailhouse John wrote:The report summary also made the point that Natural Gas is not the complete answer to the energy crisis as it is still a fossil fuel but it is SO MUCH CLEANER than coal or oil by a significant % and as such will act as a 'greener bridge' to provide time for more research and development into the likes of wave energy (which I am a huge advocate of).

Fracked gas is cleaner and will buy us time - we just have to make sure we use the time wisely and we have not always done that.

Damn right that it's not always beeen done wisely. Again we've heard all this before from the energy industry, and it never, ever turns out to be true. Remember North Sea oil being next to free and nuclear providing us with energy so cheap it won't be worth metering?
I just don't believe them any more, and I'd rather they didn't come round here spinning me fairy tales about how everything will be fine, and start pumping Christ knows what into the aquifers.
I'm an old man JJ, not quite as old as you, but getting there, and you can only fool people so many times before they tell you to fuck off.
I just don't believe them. A start would be to come clean about exactly what it is they're proposing to pump into the ground, but they won't and can't do that. Why is that? do you reckon? I suspect that they know what reaction they'd get.
Now I know I could be wrong about this, but until they come clean how can I make an informed opinion?
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

Jailhouse John
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:15 pm

Blackwhite wrote:An interesting post JJ.

Could you answer a dumb question or two please: are completion chemicals the same as the ones in the fracking mix or something else? Are the compositions of these chemical mixtures openly available? What proportion (roughly) of this volume of chemicals is lost underground, and how is its movement tracked? And what is it about the political Party with the biggest ideological fixation on deregulation and low-ball price tenders that gives you so much confidence in their ability to head off ecological disaster?


Well it is not a dumb question or two

The compositions of the chemicals is generally available howver I strongly suspect that there is a deal of 'secret squirrel' between companies as it could be considered a corporate advantage for actual details to be known but some 98% of all completion fluids is just sand and water, it is the remaining 2% that gets everybodys knickers in a twist.

Fracking is just one specific well completion technique. the chemicals used either in conventional completion or specific fracking will be different, in fact every well drilled will have a specific chemical recipe as it were in order to complete it succesfully. Between 25% and 75% of chemicals used in a completion and or fracking process will be returned to the surface along with the product that is being flowed ie oil or gas and seperated back out on the surface, this will take place in the first 7-10 days of the well flowing. The remaining sand and water plus what is left of the chemical soup mix remains underground.

The wells we are talking about both here and in the States are terminated below the zones where water is extracted from and is something like in 1:200,000,000 chance of the chemicals reaching a zone that is used for water extraction.

I am confident that the new UK governement regulations introduced just a few months ago to address exploitation of these wells will be sufficient to control the industry both above and below ground. In fact controlling the handling of the chemicals above ground is far more potentially hazardous than it is underground IMHO.

We have been drilling and completing wells for decades now and have always used a variety of methods to stimulate wells to produce to their maximum potential, the furore over fracking is quite startling to me - I cannot remember protestors surging over the many platforms I have worked on in my career. I am not trying to be funny or flippant here but Morecambe Bay where I spent many years is only a few miles offshore and easy reach of the beach.

I am not a geologist nor even a driller but I have worked in Project Management of these projects and you 'pick up' a little bit of the jargon and what it entails.

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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:46 pm

Mustafaster wrote:
Jailhouse John wrote:Mustafaster

That MIT report was interesting in that it confirmed that there has been zero evidence of well completion chemicals entering an adjacent water aquifer and only some minor evidence of methane gas entering water aquifers from Operators who appear to be real cowboys.

John, I can find dozens and dozens of attested cases of chemical filtration into water supplies in the States. You must be aware of them if you work in the industry. Any fool can google the topic and come up with loads of examples.

These "cowboys" are companies like Halliburton, not one man in his backyard. More worrying for me is the refusal of companies like Halliburton to reveal what chemicals they are putting into the ground, claiming "commercial secercy" and likening their position to Coca Cola and their secret formula. I'm sorry, but that analogy is sophistry of the worst kind.
Jailhouse John wrote:The fact that completion chemicals have not migrated is by far the most important fact that should be taken on board. The procedures that will be imposed on any of the companies looking to 'Frack' in the UK will be absolutely immense - there is far too much at stake for the government to allow any screw ups of any sort and I am confident this will take away any cowboy element from the developments.


How many times have we heard this from the industry? Strict controls, regulation, total confidence, no screw ups allowed .... until the next time, and it will be a freak accident. Exxon Valdez, Prestige, Deepwater Horizon, Piper Alpha ... The industry's crediblity is zero, I'm afraid
Jailhouse John wrote:The report summary also made the point that Natural Gas is not the complete answer to the energy crisis as it is still a fossil fuel but it is SO MUCH CLEANER than coal or oil by a significant % and as such will act as a 'greener bridge' to provide time for more research and development into the likes of wave energy (which I am a huge advocate of).

Fracked gas is cleaner and will buy us time - we just have to make sure we use the time wisely and we have not always done that.

Damn right that it's not always beeen done wisely. Again we've heard all this before from the energy industry, and it never, ever turns out to be true. Remember North Sea oil being next to free and nuclear providing us with energy so cheap it won't be worth metering?
I just don't believe them any more, and I'd rather they didn't come round here spinning me fairy tales about how everything will be fine, and start pumping Christ knows what into the aquifers.
I'm an old man JJ, not quite as old as you, but getting there, and you can only fool people so many times before they tell you to fuck off.
I just don't believe them. A start would be to come clean about exactly what it is they're proposing to pump into the ground, but they won't and can't do that. Why is that? do you reckon? I suspect that they know what reaction they'd get.
Now I know I could be wrong about this, but until they come clean how can I make an informed opinion?



Mustafaster - I think that we will have to shake hands and disagree on this. We have been 'fracking' wells all over the world including onshore UK for decades without complaint.

From your list of disasters Piper Alpha notwithstanding all the others were in the USA and I have to tell you that the UK oil and gas industry is far more monitored and controlled than they are and the new regs in the UK are even more stringent. Oil companies will have to say in their pre-approved procedures what is the composition of their completion chemicals.

I was offshore when Piper Alpha went up and our rig was not a fun place to be. Our big gang of scaffolders had just transfered over to PA and it was so sad to see many of them lost. Occidental (USA company) were really a maverick company in the extreme and their rig was an absolute disgrace by all accounts.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:48 pm

Jailhouse John wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:An interesting post JJ.

Could you answer a dumb question or two please: are completion chemicals the same as the ones in the fracking mix or something else? Are the compositions of these chemical mixtures openly available? What proportion (roughly) of this volume of chemicals is lost underground, and how is its movement tracked? And what is it about the political Party with the biggest ideological fixation on deregulation and low-ball price tenders that gives you so much confidence in their ability to head off ecological disaster?


I strongly suspect that there is a deal of 'secret squirrel' between companies as it could be considered a corporate advantage for actual details to be known but some 98% of all completion fluids is just sand and water, it is the remaining 2% that gets everybodys knickers in a twist.

That's a massive part of the problemn JJ. We're talking 2% of truly enormous quantities, so it's not as if it's a couple of spoonfuls here and there.
The idea that they can pump this stuff into the groundwater and not say what it is provokes a lot of the mistrust, and almost all of mine.
It's just not good enough for Halliburton etc. to claim commercial secrecy in this case. One thing is Coca Cola protecting their formula, I can choose to buy it or not. This is different, it is putting potential cancigens into the water, and I can't choose not to get a shower or wash my clothes or drink a coffee now and again.
If it's safe, tell us what it is and let us make our minds up about it like grown ups, just saying "trust us, it will all be fine" doesn't cut it any longer.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:07 pm

Thanks JJ, appreciate the primer.

Obviously I echo what musta is saying about transparency: and just to bang the drum one more time, the difference between this and offshore exploration is the simple fact that we do not fuck with the onshore groundwater beyond accidental pollution events and the unknown aspects of the geology. It's these unknowns that we know we don't know, if you like. Pumping a bunch of scary shit down there is very evocative of A Very Bad Idea. Especially when it is just in the interest of kicking the can down the road and getting filthy rich (a few people, obviously... like with the North Sea fields...)

This is a big distraction from the kind of progress you and I want to see, it seems...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:42 am

Jailhouse John wrote:That MIT report was interesting in that it confirmed that there has been zero evidence of well completion chemicals entering an adjacent water aquifer and only some minor evidence of methane gas entering water aquifers from Operators who appear to be real cowboys. The fact that completion chemicals have not migrated is by far the most important fact that should be taken on board. The procedures that will be imposed on any of the companies looking to 'Frack' in the UK will be absolutely immense - there is far too much at stake for the government to allow any screw ups of any sort and I am confident this will take away any cowboy element from the developments.

The report summary also made the point that Natural Gas is not the complete answer to the energy crisis as it is still a fossil fuel but it is SO MUCH CLEANER than coal or oil by a significant % and as such will act as a 'greener bridge' to provide time for more research and development into the likes of wave energy (which I am a huge advocate of).

Fracked gas is cleaner and will buy us time - we just have to make sure we use the time wisely and we have not always done that.


Thanks for some well written and informative posts, JJ. Perhaps you could organise a "fract finding" mission?

What you say confirms much of what I have read on the subject and indeed some of my earlier posts. For obvious reasons, some on here are more likely to accept it from you than me! That said, I do have some sympathy for some of the protestors and there does need to be vigilance with respect to regulations and enforcement - but overall the evidence so far does suggest that fracking poses a lower overall environmental risk or detriment than most other viable fossil or nuclear fuels.

I agree that long term more investment is needed to make renewables more economically viable. I think the biggest handicap here has been political failure to make progress on cap and trade schemes. The European scheme is a joke (far too many permits - can't the EU get anything right?) and global agreements are badly needed to prevent some countries seeking economic advantage by opting out.

There is a lack of political leadership world wide on this issue. Until the "polluter pays" principle (whether by cap and trade or carbon tax) is enshrined in energy markets, investors will continue to invest in fossil fuels over renewables because the returns are higher, costs for businesses and consumers lower, and with most pollution costs conveniently passed on to taxpayers (especially in future generations).
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Man Called Sun
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Man Called Sun » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Vampire wrote:Perhaps you could organise a "fract finding" mission?

BOOM!
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:59 pm

Man Called Sun wrote:
Vampire wrote:Perhaps you could organise a "fract finding" mission?

BOOM!

Come on, give him a break. It can't be easy being born without a funny bone in your body, then spending years having lots of them forcibly inserted :mrgreen:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:14 am

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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thestraw
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby thestraw » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:35 pm


In light of this, i was thinking a few months back of investing some of my hard earned £ in fracking companies as i think you could make a few quid as its obviously a growing industry and only heading one way.

Anyone got any companies listed that may be worth a punt on? Not a major amount, just a grand or so to see how they go..
#MOT #GAWA

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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:57 pm

:lol: JJ can advise.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:09 am

I see the UK government is putting all its weight behind fracking with self regulation by the industry.
So that's alright then.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:26 am

Mustafaster wrote:I see the UK government is putting all its weight behind fracking with self regulation by the industry.
So that's alright then.

Blatant: and probably very effective.

I wonder how expensive these efforts can be made to be? Perhaps their site security costs need to be reconsidered...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:37 am

That spastic dickfuck Michael Fallon actually described fracking as a 'renewable' on BBC1 this morning.

God help us.
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Ponte
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Ponte » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:02 am

eric olthwaite wrote:That spastic dickfuck Michael Fallon actually described fracking as a 'renewable' on BBC1 this morning.

God help us.


I hope you're joking but I fear not.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening or sexually-orientated material. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned.
Hmmm.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:19 am

Also little attention being paid to the explicit admission (in justifying why they can't be arsed to write to householders in areas being fracked) that it's impossible to know who is going to be affected as "we've not got a clue what's going on down there, or where we are getting the gas from". Reducing risk with detailed geological surveys my arse.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:23 am

Blackwhite wrote:Also little attention being paid to the explicit admission (in justifying why they can't be arsed to write to householders in areas being fracked) that it's impossible to know who is going to be affected as "we've not got a clue what's going on down there, or where we are getting the gas from". Reducing risk with detailed geological surveys my arse.

I see they are buying the local politicians off, telling them they can keep all the local tax revenue, nice touch, that, very generous.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Man Called Sun
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Man Called Sun » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:31 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:That spastic dickfuck Michael Fallon actually described fracking as a 'renewable' on BBC1 this morning.

God help us.

He was a fucking embarrassment this morning. I was expecting to see reasoned points being made, but I should've known better from a tory.
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:13 pm

Mustafaster wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:Also little attention being paid to the explicit admission (in justifying why they can't be arsed to write to householders in areas being fracked) that it's impossible to know who is going to be affected as "we've not got a clue what's going on down there, or where we are getting the gas from". Reducing risk with detailed geological surveys my arse.

I see they are buying the local politicians off, telling them they can keep all the local tax revenue, nice touch, that, very generous.

For all its cynicism, it's not as clever as it thinks it is. Councils do not enjoy a good relationship with their constituents, typically, and this will make folks at the drill sites much more resentful, not less. The rest of the folks who at best might get some extra services saved from cuts, well they might be fooled for a while but not when the penny drops that most of the money disappears...

Some nice scope for FOI requests about council trips, jollies etc. This should see them plumb the depths of Rotten Boroughs country. The bribery is official and sanctioned, they'll fill their fucking boots.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Jailhouse John
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:21 pm

Blackwhite wrote::lol: JJ can advise.

Oooo you are awful - but I do like you!!!

You have already missed the boat on Igas btw


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