O/T: Fracking etc.

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:35 am

Kummel wrote:Of course if you really are that concerned about fossil fuels, you can always elect to do without them, the energy they create and of course any products in anyway produced using them


It's a fair challenge in one sense. Whilst there are some legitimate environmental concerns with fracking, they are on present evidence no worse than other major forms of energy whether fossil or nuclear. If you're going to oppose fracking on environmental grounds, then you would surely also oppose nuclear energy as the environmental risks are far greater there. You would also oppose offshore oil rigs given some of the environmental disasters we've seen there. And even oil drilled onshore is largely transported by oil tankers with all the environmental damage from oil spills etc. And coal possibly inflicts the worst long term environmental damage of the lot given the impact on global warming of the far greater volume of carbon emissions compared with shale gas.

So logically, if you're against fracking on environmental grounds, you'd surely oppose these other forms of energy as well? And how would you then generate enough affordable energy to enjoy anything like your current standard of living (not to mention keep others around the world out of poverty)?

If you're really concerned about the environment you'd be better off campaigning for better regulations and enforcement, not opposing shale gas altogether. Or, perhaps it's about this rather than environmentalism:

Blackwhite wrote:But this mass experiment in the interest of a small number of utter cunts? No, not having that.
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Eddies Boots
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Eddies Boots » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:07 am

Vampire wrote:
Eddies Boots wrote:Of course methane can leak naturally into our water supply - but not in the ridiculous volumes found once fracking starts. Also, it is the heavier minerals that come with the methane that are the bigger problem.

The fracking companies spent sixpence trying to solve the issue of water-table pollution and then gave it up as it was too expensive, and started fudging the issue with 'well it occurs naturally - how are we to tell the difference?'.

Folk are protesting this everywhere - decide if you want to join them.


Where's the evidence that contamination has reached “ridiculous volumes?” The evidence from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) I posted earlier based on 20,000 drilled wells shows only a handful were contaminated by fracking and these concerns could be addressed by better enforcement and tougher regulations. I’m not disputing there are some legitimate concerns (as with all the major and economically viable forms of energy), but let’s keep it in perspective.


When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong - I thought that the estimates were 2% of drilled wells caused issues with drinking water so with with 80,000 active wells in the US that is 1600 areas that have had issues.
And yes they could be improved, but only if the price is right for the corporation responsible and the local pols whose campaigns they fund - not the American way unfortunately for those impacted.
As with most changes, a corporation will not self-police, and spend as much as it needs to in lobbying dollars to make sure that a precedent is not set that places more burden on the industry - rather than spending those dollars to improve their product/process. Its a mindset that is all too common in environmental/health issues.

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Ponte
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Ponte » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:53 am

Pretty much, fracking is damaging and produces a low yield. Wind farms are better but also don't have the output we require at current and expected future consumption rates.
The way I see it is we either cut consumption in the way Germany are looking at or we invest in new nuclear power.
It would help massively if we weren't always twenty years behind. We are just starting with biogas plants, I went to Germany a couple of years ago to look at theirs, the cunts are all over.
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Hmmm.

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ChairmanMeaow
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby ChairmanMeaow » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:32 am

Ponte wrote:The way I see it is we either cut consumption in the way Germany are looking at or we invest in new nuclear power.


We have to do both I reckon and supplement that nuclear energy with alternative supplies. Hydro, wind, biomass etc.

There may be a compelling case for fracking, but I'm yet to see it.

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Ontolly
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Ontolly » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:51 am

fuck fracking - stupid name. Should have called it rocking then I'd be up for it. Much cooler name.
And fuck the other named sources. To me the answer is battery power. Buy a fuck load of batteries. Bigger ones like really really massive rechargeable ones.
The only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter was that his name wasn't Henry Porter.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:17 am

"If you don't like it, why don't you go and live in a cave" already?

:lol:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:15 am

Vampire wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:
The alternatives to fossil fuels are clearly a potential answer.......


Blackwhite wrote:Hmm, a straw man argument, suggesting I have a problem with fossil fuels in general...


Hmmm :scratch:

Only you could find this confusing: pay attention, both statements are consistent. There would only be inconsistency if fossil fuels were limitless.

It's pretty obvious you're just reading, and not thinking. Much as evidenced by your sophomoric understanding of economics, and your kindergarten-level science...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:48 am

Eddies Boots wrote:When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong - I thought that the estimates were 2% of drilled wells caused issues with drinking water so with with 80,000 active wells in the US that is 1600 areas that have had issues.
And yes they could be improved, but only if the price is right for the corporation responsible and the local pols whose campaigns they fund - not the American way unfortunately for those impacted.
As with most changes, a corporation will not self-police, and spend as much as it needs to in lobbying dollars to make sure that a precedent is not set that places more burden on the industry - rather than spending those dollars to improve their product/process. Its a mindset that is all too common in environmental/health issues.


Indeed. The most frustrating thing about energy supply is that there's money to be made in all sorts of fields, but large corporations are essentially reactionary - they are interesting in anything which can be seen to relate to stuff they already do (and fracking is kind of oil-y); then they just spend mega-bucks lobbying the fuck out of any alternatives.

This is why China are light years ahead of us in thin film PV and the like; they don't have the same capitalist corporate history and they're more open to exploring any options.

As a country we have an amazing technological opportunity to lead the world in stuff like wave generation and biomass, but unfortunately our beloved leaders' financial backers are too blinkered to see this.
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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:05 am

eric olthwaite wrote:
Eddies Boots wrote:When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong - I thought that the estimates were 2% of drilled wells caused issues with drinking water so with with 80,000 active wells in the US that is 1600 areas that have had issues.
And yes they could be improved, but only if the price is right for the corporation responsible and the local pols whose campaigns they fund - not the American way unfortunately for those impacted.
As with most changes, a corporation will not self-police, and spend as much as it needs to in lobbying dollars to make sure that a precedent is not set that places more burden on the industry - rather than spending those dollars to improve their product/process. Its a mindset that is all too common in environmental/health issues.


Indeed. The most frustrating thing about energy supply is that there's money to be made in all sorts of fields, but large corporations are essentially reactionary - they are interesting in anything which can be seen to relate to stuff they already do (and fracking is kind of oil-y); then they just spend mega-bucks lobbying the fuck out of any alternatives.

This is why China are light years ahead of us in thin film PV and the like; they don't have the same capitalist corporate history and they're more open to exploring any options.

As a country we have an amazing technological opportunity to lead the world in stuff like wave generation and biomass, but unfortunately our beloved leaders' financial backers are too blinkered to see this.

Yep.
I'm amazed (well, no I'm not really) at how this is playing out here. The usual suspects are spending a bit of cash schmoozing the local politicians and media, and it just might be enough. You wouldn't mind so much but it's fuckin peanuts to the likes of Repsol, doesn't even register on their balance sheet it's so little. A few jollies and "fact finding" jaunts, a few nice dinners here and there, that kind of thing. Promise couple of hundred jobs, some of them for locals ...

Sometimes I drive around this country and think how much energy is blasting down from the sun every day. We have the Picos de Europa mountains with these very short, very steep rivers that go from 2.5km altitude to sea level in about 50km that almost never dry up becuase the snow melt keeps them running through the summer. Then there's the Bay of Biscay, surfers' paradise with the breakers crashing in and high tidal variarions....
And they want to pump poison into the aquifers .....
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:13 am

Mustafaster wrote:And they want to pump poison into the aquifers .....

... and they don't want to tell you which poisons they're using, in which sites, or in what quantities... There should be a law against it. Oh, there was...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Jailhouse John
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:48 pm

Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:49 am

And yet where is this research that says that 2% of all wells have contaminated water supplies?

As far as I was aware there was a 0% contamination rate. In my 40 years in the oil industry throughout the world including the USA I have never been involved in a well that has not been completed exactly as it was meant to have been. If you are going to use the evidence of that film of the methane being lit coming out of a guys domestic tap then please dont because he was a real clown who drilled a private well into a methane layer instead of an adjacent water aquifer and was surprised when it produced gas!!!

I admit that I back my former industry to complete all its UK wells into the CBM (coal bed methane) deposits and then 'Frack' - a procedure that has been around for years btw - and indeed I have some investments in the current round of drilling that is ongoing. It will be the most heavily regulated drilling project ever undertaken given the publicity surrounding it but those who are concerned should look at the onshore BP Wytch Farm project which has been in production for many years now in the lovely Dorset countryside and the local residents hardly are aware of existence apart from its positive impact to the local economy and jobs market.

Mindo
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mindo » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:11 am

the Jailhouse John articles are often my favourite bit of The Square Ball. For whatever reason, in my mind's eye, I never pictured you as a rich fracker... :)

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:40 am

Jailhouse John wrote:And yet where is this research that says that 2% of all wells have contaminated water supplies?

As far as I was aware there was a 0% contamination rate. In my 40 years in the oil industry throughout the world including the USA I have never been involved in a well that has not been completed exactly as it was meant to have been. If you are going to use the evidence of that film of the methane being lit coming out of a guys domestic tap then please dont because he was a real clown who drilled a private well into a methane layer instead of an adjacent water aquifer and was surprised when it produced gas!!!

I admit that I back my former industry to complete all its UK wells into the CBM (coal bed methane) deposits and then 'Frack' - a procedure that has been around for years btw - and indeed I have some investments in the current round of drilling that is ongoing. It will be the most heavily regulated drilling project ever undertaken given the publicity surrounding it but those who are concerned should look at the onshore BP Wytch Farm project which has been in production for many years now in the lovely Dorset countryside and the local residents hardly are aware of existence apart from its positive impact to the local economy and jobs market.

All that is accepted JJ. Nobody doubts that fracking works, it produces fuel and we all need energy.
Not sure you can state that there has been 0% contamination tbh. There are a whole buch of cases in the states where drinking water has been contaminated, as I'm suer you know. I am sure that these wells were constructed according to plan, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
The fear that some of us have about fracking in our areas is that even though the wells may be costructed and managed according to all the regs, that still doesn't set our minds at rest. The industry is very very good at influencing local politicians and convncing them that in their particular case it's perfectly safe. The petrochemicals industry have built up very good teams of PR experts over many years.
The regulations just aren't strong enough, and probabaly never can be strong enough to prevent contamination of groundwater. The thing about subterranean aquifers is they are unpredictable, you don't know where they go at any one time and they may shift tomorrow.
There are so many cases of the oil industry totally destrying a local environment, even when they followed all the rules. Here we had the Prestige disaster some years back. One incident, the consquences of which were catastrophic. And that's why we're very wary of all the promises made that this is perfectly safe. We just don't believe the oil industry any more when they tell us that something is safe.
One fuck up in one well in the Picos de Europa could destrpy an entire ecosystem from the peaks to the shore. In return for what? A few jobs and major profits for Repsol/BP.
The potential benefits don't seem to outweigh the huge risks, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but it's gonna take a lot more than some slick video presentations by companies who have a very, very poor track record.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:56 am

Mustafaster wrote:The potential benefits don't seem to outweigh the huge risks, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but it's gonna take a lot more than some slick video presentations by companies who have a very, very poor track record.


Well, quite. The oil industry tends to act surprised when people don't trust them, and all these reputable US / European companies are so diligent, straightforward and honest.
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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:29 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:The potential benefits don't seem to outweigh the huge risks, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but it's gonna take a lot more than some slick video presentations by companies who have a very, very poor track record.


Well, quite. The oil industry tends to act surprised when people don't trust them, and all these reputable US / European companies are so diligent, straightforward and honest.

And while we're on that note, let's appreciate their keen involvement in local democracy
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.


Jailhouse John
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:25 pm

Mindo wrote:the Jailhouse John articles are often my favourite bit of The Square Ball. For whatever reason, in my mind's eye, I never pictured you as a rich fracker... :)


Mindo many thanks for the TSB complement, I am pleased that some seem to appreciate them. I enjoy doing them and quite franky it is easier remembering what I saw in 1955 than it would be for the last match (Who was that against!!)?.

As to being a rich fracker, were it so. I well remember the Offshore Engineers prayer which was "Please Lord let there be another North Sea Oil boom - I promise not to piss this one away"

Mindo
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:19 pm

Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mindo » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:43 pm

Jailhouse John wrote:
Mindo wrote:the Jailhouse John articles are often my favourite bit of The Square Ball. For whatever reason, in my mind's eye, I never pictured you as a rich fracker... :)


Mindo many thanks for the TSB complement, I am pleased that some seem to appreciate them. I enjoy doing them and quite franky it is easier remembering what I saw in 1955 than it would be for the last match (Who was that against!!)?.

As to being a rich fracker, were it so. I well remember the Offshore Engineers prayer which was "Please Lord let there be another North Sea Oil boom - I promise not to piss this one away"


Thanks for the articles, as a relatively young (29, thats still young, right?) leeds supporter, they provide a very accessible insight into the playing history of the club

Jailhouse John
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:48 pm

Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Jailhouse John » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Mustafaster wrote:
Jailhouse John wrote:And yet where is this research that says that 2% of all wells have contaminated water supplies?

As far as I was aware there was a 0% contamination rate. In my 40 years in the oil industry throughout the world including the USA I have never been involved in a well that has not been completed exactly as it was meant to have been. If you are going to use the evidence of that film of the methane being lit coming out of a guys domestic tap then please dont because he was a real clown who drilled a private well into a methane layer instead of an adjacent water aquifer and was surprised when it produced gas!!!

I admit that I back my former industry to complete all its UK wells into the CBM (coal bed methane) deposits and then 'Frack' - a procedure that has been around for years btw - and indeed I have some investments in the current round of drilling that is ongoing. It will be the most heavily regulated drilling project ever undertaken given the publicity surrounding it but those who are concerned should look at the onshore BP Wytch Farm project which has been in production for many years now in the lovely Dorset countryside and the local residents hardly are aware of existence apart from its positive impact to the local economy and jobs market.

All that is accepted JJ. Nobody doubts that fracking works, it produces fuel and we all need energy.
Not sure you can state that there has been 0% contamination tbh. There are a whole buch of cases in the states where drinking water has been contaminated, as I'm suer you know. I am sure that these wells were constructed according to plan, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
The fear that some of us have about fracking in our areas is that even though the wells may be costructed and managed according to all the regs, that still doesn't set our minds at rest. The industry is very very good at influencing local politicians and convncing them that in their particular case it's perfectly safe. The petrochemicals industry have built up very good teams of PR experts over many years.
The regulations just aren't strong enough, and probabaly never can be strong enough to prevent contamination of groundwater. The thing about subterranean aquifers is they are unpredictable, you don't know where they go at any one time and they may shift tomorrow.
There are so many cases of the oil industry totally destrying a local environment, even when they followed all the rules. Here we had the Prestige disaster some years back. One incident, the consquences of which were catastrophic. And that's why we're very wary of all the promises made that this is perfectly safe. We just don't believe the oil industry any more when they tell us that something is safe.
One fuck up in one well in the Picos de Europa could destrpy an entire ecosystem from the peaks to the shore. In return for what? A few jobs and major profits for Repsol/BP.
The potential benefits don't seem to outweigh the huge risks, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but it's gonna take a lot more than some slick video presentations by companies who have a very, very poor track record.


Mustafaster

That MIT report was interesting in that it confirmed that there has been zero evidence of well completion chemicals entering an adjacent water aquifer and only some minor evidence of methane gas entering water aquifers from Operators who appear to be real cowboys. The fact that completion chemicals have not migrated is by far the most important fact that should be taken on board. The procedures that will be imposed on any of the companies looking to 'Frack' in the UK will be absolutely immense - there is far too much at stake for the government to allow any screw ups of any sort and I am confident this will take away any cowboy element from the developments.

The report summary also made the point that Natural Gas is not the complete answer to the energy crisis as it is still a fossil fuel but it is SO MUCH CLEANER than coal or oil by a significant % and as such will act as a 'greener bridge' to provide time for more research and development into the likes of wave energy (which I am a huge advocate of).

Fracked gas is cleaner and will buy us time - we just have to make sure we use the time wisely and we have not always done that.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:40 pm

An interesting post JJ.

Could you answer a dumb question or two please: are completion chemicals the same as the ones in the fracking mix or something else? Are the compositions of these chemical mixtures openly available? What proportion (roughly) of this volume of chemicals is lost underground, and how is its movement tracked? And what is it about the political Party with the biggest ideological fixation on deregulation and low-ball price tenders that gives you so much confidence in their ability to head off ecological disaster?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.


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