O/T: Fracking etc.

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Blackwhite
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O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:56 pm

Couldn't find anything on here, wondered what the general opinion was about it all with youse.

My personal opinion is that we've got no energy policy worth a Damn, and I can see these clueless toffs selling vast swathes of rights over for a quick economic buck. And the jury has reported back in the U.S.: fracking causes pollution, no question.

I'd rather we had a plan than poisoned ourselves, but then I still don't bathe in San Pellegrino, unlike the Rees-Moggs of this world...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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AndyPaul
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby AndyPaul » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:08 pm

Without being the font of all knowledge in this subject from my view we are making a right balls up of obtaining energy.

This country should be investing more in wind and wave energy. People complain about wind farms being ugly but i don't mind them at all. You don't need to put a wind farm next to areas of beauty like Stone Henge just stick them in shit holes, if anything they'll improve the view.

As for wave energy, you just need to turn on the news and see the coast getting battered by waves. All that energy wasted.

Admittedly fracking is not a subject I know much about but I'm not convinced other avenues have been looked at properly.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mustafaster » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:21 pm

Blackwhite wrote:Couldn't find anything on here, wondered what the general opinion was about it all with youse.

My personal opinion is that we've got no energy policy worth a Damn, and I can see these clueless toffs selling vast swathes of rights over for a quick economic buck. And the jury has reported back in the U.S.: fracking causes pollution, no question.

I'd rather we had a plan than poisoned ourselves, but then I still don't bathe in San Pellegrino, unlike the Rees-Moggs of this world...

Very, very hot topic here. The likes of Repsol and BP are keen as hell to start fracking in the Picos de Europa (google it, it's Europe's best kept secret) and are busy wining and dining the local politicians in the hope of getting permits to start.
The Picos national park is just about the only place left in western europe where wolves and bears are reasonably common even if not exactly in abundance. It is an astonishingly lovely place, half an hour's drive from my house, and I consider myself very lucky to have it so close.
Image
As a result the local wildlife even outside the park is pretty spectacular, I often see wild boar trotting down the road in front of the house, and have counted over 30 eagles in the sky at one time from the garden.

Problem is the polarisation of views, on the one side the money grabbing cunts who would happily see the whole of the Picos turned into a desert if they thought they could make a tenner on the share price.
On the other a bunch of hippies who would love to go back to a preindustrial dreamland.

I really don't know enough about the science of fracking to make a completely unbiased judgement on it, but if the likes of Repsol amd BP are involved then the answer just has to be no if there is even the slightest doubt. Their track record just doesn't inspire any kind of confidence. It's too valuable a resource to be taking even the slightest risks. If that means Repsol &co have to do without their cheap shale gas, well... tough.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Devi
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Devi » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:24 pm

NFM thanks.

Not for all the tea in Yorkshire.

I like it. What is it?

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eric olthwaite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby eric olthwaite » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:26 pm

Yeah, bit of a hot topic as Balcombe, where there was a pretty good campaign to get the frackers to frack off, is just up the road from here. The proposed location is a couple of miles from the groundwater source of the Ouse, and half a mile from a rail tunnel on the Brighton mainline which they keep closing when bits fall down. Slightest tremor and that fucker's gone. Maybe with a train and 800 people inside? Madness.*

I have two observations:

a) Our 'energy policy' is based on the premise that we'll need a shitload more energy by 2050. German energy policy is designed around the target of needing 25% less energy by 2050, including allowing for economic growth. A lot of Tories are opposed to energy saving and insulation programmes etc, and I seriously believe this is because they are only focussed on massive large-corporation opportunities.

b) I've read up a bit about fracking and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors shit about the energy return, as opposed to the energy generated. I can't be arsed to look up the figures now, but IIRC energy generated from conventional energy is about 70:1 - you put one unit in to get 70 units out. Fracking is summat like 4:1. It will obviously improve over time, by not by all that much.

In short, it's corporate cuntery and a complete waste of time.

*EDIT: forgot to say that we already have water shortages down here. And they want to divert the water we do have for that?
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FredFlintstone
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby FredFlintstone » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:12 pm

Frack away! As that great man, C. Montgomery Burns says:

"Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?! Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she's losing. Well I say, hard cheese."

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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:53 am

Steady on here, folks.

I'm not doubting there are some legitimate environmental concerns with fracking. Overall, however, fracking poses less risk and has so far caused less environmental damage than other major energy sources such as coal and nuclear. Indeed, carbon emissions have fallen faster in the US than Europe in recent years partly because the US has been able to substitute a large chunk of coal fired energy for fractured gas.

The US also shows that the economic benefits from fracking are considerable. Even the most pessimistic economic forecast I have seen predicts fracking will provide at least some boost to American GDP (and hence global GDP as the US is a major trading partner for most large economies). The McKinsey Report (admittedly at the optimistic end) talks about fracking boosting US GDP by hundreds of billions of dollars by 2020 and supporting millions of jobs through the energy industry, supplying manufacturing industries, infrastructure projects, and of course higher business and consumer spending through lower energy bills.

There are some legitimate protestors with legitimate environmental concerns and they deserve respect. They will play a positive part in the development of the industry by encouraging companies and regulators to address what safety concerns there are.

Unfortunately, there are also other protestors with less pure motives. First of all there are the NIMBYS who act out of no less self interest than the companies they criticise. Unsurprisingly, they have been more prominent trying to kill the industry at birth in the UK and Australia than in the US. In the US, the landowners and not the State own the rights to the minerals on their land, and the tax systems in some States ensures some of the wealth is re-invested back in the communities where drilling occurs. Second, those driven by envy, bitterness, and low self esteem who at times seem to want to oppose any economic activity that leads to others getting richer or more successful than themselves - regardless of the wider economic benefits to the community as a whole. It's no surprise who started this thread - and only a matter of time before unsubstantiated allegations against fracking Executives surface on the Saville thread. And third, there are the usual naive followers of the herd that are easily manipulated by the above.

Those with genuine concerns have a legitimate part to play in the debate and will help to secure higher environmental standards. Those just saying "frack off" out of self interest or more perverse motives should "frack off" themselves. The world has too much to gain in terms of higher GDP, jobs, living standards, and reduced poverty, carbon emissions and energy prices, to be swayed by uninformed voices as ever shouting louder than the rest.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Eddies Boots » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:06 am

Look for Gasland and Gasland 2 documentaries. [Try and avoid the preachy mother earth stuff and just watch the details.]
Fracking is an appalling answer to the wrong questions.
Even when corporations and govt admit that there is poisoning in progress they act together to make sure that there is no need to solve it. Just "you gotta move out".
It is a dumbfuck solution to not having an energy policy - and as such corporations will be forcing it on as many countries as they can with the "well that's what we do in the 'States" argument.
Even when touted as a great domestic economic gain so worth the "sacrifice" - the first thing they did was set up huge terminals so that they could export it to raise the prices of frack'd gas.
So if its important to you, then find out more.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:44 am

Vampire wrote:Steady on here, folks.

As the OP, I am happy to confirm I don't give a fuck about your opinion, so can it.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:16 am

Blackwhite wrote:
Vampire wrote:Steady on here, folks.

As the OP, I am happy to confirm I don't give a fuck about your opinion, so can it.


Thanks for taking the time to share that insight with us.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:33 am

Vampire wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:
Vampire wrote:Steady on here, folks.

As the OP, I am happy to confirm I don't give a fuck about your opinion, so can it.


Thanks for taking the time to share that insight with us.

You're welcome yawnmaster. Now fuck off and don't post on this thread again, I specifically wasn't asking you and don't care what you've read on the topic :thumbl:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby eric olthwaite » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:22 am

Whilst I do generally try to avoid this imbecile....

Vampire wrote:Overall, however, fracking poses less risk and has so far caused less environmental damage than other major energy sources such as coal and nuclear.


And your source for that is what? And does it take account of the relative historical duration, and the extent, of the coal, nuclear and fracking industries?

Vampire wrote:The US also shows that the economic benefits from fracking are considerable. Even the most pessimistic economic forecast I have seen predicts fracking will provide at least some boost to American GDP (and hence global GDP as the US is a major trading partner for most large economies). The McKinsey Report (admittedly at the optimistic end) talks about fracking boosting US GDP by hundreds of billions of dollars by 2020 and supporting millions of jobs through the energy industry, supplying manufacturing industries, infrastructure projects, and of course higher business and consumer spending through lower energy bills.


Whereas other forms of energy generation, and indeed, industries focussing on energy-use reduction technologies, do not create any economic activity or contribute to GDP at all, of course. Straw man.

Vampire wrote:Second, those driven by envy, bitterness, and low self esteem who at times seem to want to oppose any economic activity that leads to others getting richer or more successful than themselves - regardless of the wider economic benefits to the community as a whole. It's no surprise who started this thread - and only a matter of time before unsubstantiated allegations against fracking Executives surface on the Saville thread. And third, there are the usual naive followers of the herd that are easily manipulated by the above.


Which is why you see the same huge community protests against offshore wind energy etc, as they too are financed by large corporations. Oh, except you don't. Accusing left-wing protestors of jealousy is a standard, irrelevant, right-wing troll tactic, so fuck off.

Vampire wrote:swayed by uninformed voices as ever shouting louder than the rest.


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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:58 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Whilst I do generally try to avoid this imbecile....

Vampire wrote:Overall, however, fracking poses less risk and has so far caused less environmental damage than other major energy sources such as coal and nuclear.


And your source for that is what? And does it take account of the relative historical duration, and the extent, of the coal, nuclear and fracking industries?

Vampire wrote:The US also shows that the economic benefits from fracking are considerable. Even the most pessimistic economic forecast I have seen predicts fracking will provide at least some boost to American GDP (and hence global GDP as the US is a major trading partner for most large economies). The McKinsey Report (admittedly at the optimistic end) talks about fracking boosting US GDP by hundreds of billions of dollars by 2020 and supporting millions of jobs through the energy industry, supplying manufacturing industries, infrastructure projects, and of course higher business and consumer spending through lower energy bills.


Whereas other forms of energy generation, and indeed, industries focussing on energy-use reduction technologies, do not create any economic activity or contribute to GDP at all, of course. Straw man.

Vampire wrote:Second, those driven by envy, bitterness, and low self esteem who at times seem to want to oppose any economic activity that leads to others getting richer or more successful than themselves - regardless of the wider economic benefits to the community as a whole. It's no surprise who started this thread - and only a matter of time before unsubstantiated allegations against fracking Executives surface on the Saville thread. And third, there are the usual naive followers of the herd that are easily manipulated by the above.


Which is why you see the same huge community protests against offshore wind energy etc, as they too are financed by large corporations. Oh, except you don't. Accusing left-wing protestors of jealousy is a standard, irrelevant, right-wing troll tactic, so fuck off.

Vampire wrote:swayed by uninformed voices as ever shouting louder than the rest.


Image


What an unpleasant post. If you're not prepared to consider an argument with an open mind just because of the person putting it forward then there's little point responding. Besides, it's obvious from your post that you already know everything there is to know - so I don't see how I could enlighten you further.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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dirty leeds
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Vampire wrote:It's no surprise who started this thread - and only a matter of time before unsubstantiated allegations against fracking Executives surface on the Saville thread. And third, there are the usual naive followers of the herd that are easily manipulated by the above.



Y'see Vamps, that's where I stopped being interested in what you had to say. There was no need for it. Why not just avoid the cheap shots for once and engage in the argument. You are clearly interested.

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Man Called Sun
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Man Called Sun » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:26 pm

Vampire wrote:blah blah blah

I preferred the profile pic with the huge norks.
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:39 pm

This is why I prefer to just tell the little shitehawk to fuck off... It saves reading his bullshit posts (and that one was a doozy).

Also pretty telling that the only voice in unironic support is the biggest Moron.




Mind you, watching him lose his cool is pretty funny :lol:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Mindo
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Mindo » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:45 pm

Vampire wrote:The McKinsey Report
I personally haven't read up too extensively on the topic, but as a general rule I wouldn't be building my arguments quite so heavily on a report by a consulting practice which has rather a lot to gain from fracking....

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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:45 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Vampire wrote:It's no surprise who started this thread - and only a matter of time before unsubstantiated allegations against fracking Executives surface on the Saville thread. And third, there are the usual naive followers of the herd that are easily manipulated by the above.



Y'see Vamps, that's where I stopped being interested in what you had to say. There was no need for it. Why not just avoid the cheap shots for once and engage in the argument. You are clearly interested.


You're being a bit selective DL. When you kop as much as I do from the usual suspects you're entitled to occasionally have a "cheap shot" back!

Presumably, and to be consistent, you also stopped being interested in Eric's post at this point:

eric olthwaite wrote:Whilst I do generally try to avoid this imbecile....
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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dirty leeds
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby dirty leeds » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:48 pm

Vampire wrote:Presumably, and to be consistent, you also stopped being interested in Eric's post at this point:

eric olthwaite wrote:Whilst I do generally try to avoid this imbecile....



You did start it... which was my point.

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Vampire
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Re: O/T: Fracking etc.

Postby Vampire » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:55 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Vampire wrote:Presumably, and to be consistent, you also stopped being interested in Eric's post at this point:

eric olthwaite wrote:Whilst I do generally try to avoid this imbecile....



You did start it... which was my point.


Try checking out other threads to see where the balance of abuse and "cheap shots" lies (not to mention, to use your phrase, who usually "starts it.")
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.


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