'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby the flying pig » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:00 pm

the daily heil a couple of days ago seemed unreasonably pleased [i can't think why] at David James coming out & saying that an English version of the NFL's 'Rooney Rule' [see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule - basically NFL teams are obliged to interview minority candidates for 'head coaching and senior football operation jobs'] would be a bad thing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2311031/David-James-Black-managers-dont-jobs-theyre-good-enough.html

i dunno if i agree with him or not.

the first thing to say would be that comparing football managers with NFL head coaches would be a heck of a stretch. top level NFL coaching is a, well, a 'vocation' in a way that's unimaginable to most football fans. of the 32 current NFL head coaches:

(a) all without exception are college graduates;
(b) a single figure number of them had any kind of pro playing career, only one or two had genuinely good ones [e.g. none were a mancini or a laudrup in playing terms, a handful were maybe allardyces or whatever. most were, i suppose, mourinhos for want of a better comparison];
(c) the average age at which a current NFL head coach started full-time coaching is mid twenties, most younger, starting out as a very junior coach straight out of university being a very common route;
(d) the average number of years for which a current NFL head coach occupied junior coaching posts before getting an NFL head coach gig is 20+;
(e) most haven't had head coach gigs at more than one NFL club - the common pattern there is to spend a long time working your way as far up the career ladder as you can go, the most successful few latterly spending a few years doing a HC job, then retiring.

in short HCs are reasonably serious professionals who've reached the top of a reasonably serious career ladder. the rooney rule came in because black candidates who had similar profiles to their white rivals for jobs [e.g. education, quality & quantity of experience etc] were seen to be doing good jobs in slightly more junior roles but just not getting the top jobs.

by comparison, english football managers have historically been, well, high-profile figureheads basically, many of them very big names from their playing days, many of them barely literate [the lord only knows what someone like a DOL, a shearer, or a roy keane {thankfully seemingly of a dying breed} can possibly get up sitting at their 'desks' in their 'offices'], typically got their first manager's gig on the back of fairly limited coaching experience... y'know... names that look good [or bad] sprawled across tabloid back pages or sound good [or bad] in terrace chants. as much as anything they're PR men to be basically hired & fired as a smokescreen when results aren't up to scratch. managers are very often judged on results regardless of resources context, leading to daft paradoxes such as 'arry redknapp being lauded as a genius for hitting the big four jackpot [tho not in the end due to chelsea's BAROMETER win] with spurs in 2012 & a semi-figure of fun for hitting rock bottom with the loftus road shitehouse in 2013.

exciting as this is, it does mean that football management hasn't historically been very much of a meritocracy. good luck, image, perception, have all been king.

i suppose my contention is that football manager hiring & firing is too daft & illogical to try to include something serious like equal opportunity rules. maybe i'm missing something?

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AndyPaul
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:27 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby AndyPaul » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:35 pm

Its where it stops though in terms of everything. Start it for managers, what about players, do blacks get cheaper tickets to get the crowd quota.

Its not just race. How about players for internationals, should there be an allocation of players from lesser teams. I always thought Kevin Nolan should have been given a chance for England when at Bolton, but he never did because he was at Bolton. Nigel Martyn should have played for England alot more than he did but because he played at Palace and Leeds he didn't get much of a look in.

As with anything people should be chosen due to their ability to do the job, whether its managing a football team or pushing trolleys around Tesco's car-park. It doesn't always work like that because life ain't fair.

But I would be pissed off if I missed out on a job interview even though I was the better candidate because the other guy is black.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
Location: Arse end of nowhere

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby Blackwhite » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:31 pm

AndyPaul wrote:Its where it stops though in terms of everything. Start it for managers, what about players, do blacks get cheaper tickets to get the crowd quota.

Now, it's extension to the point of absurdity that.

AFAIK black fans do not find themselves mystifyingly unable to get tickets, despite being in the right place with actual cash money.

There is clear evidence that black employees have found their job prospects less stellar than their white peers, for whatever reason.

Let's start by not fucking the pooch before the question is really even framed, eh?


AndyPaul wrote:But I would be pissed off if I missed out on a job interview even though I was the better candidate because the other guy is black.

So black up for the interview. Fucking hell man, has mini-Joofy taught you nought?
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: UK

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby Tommy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:32 pm

You have to break the cycle though. It has to start somewhere. You won't see more people of different gender, ethnicity, sexuality, race etc in specific jobs and industries until you start deliberately employing them specifically in an effort to diversify.

Equality is the desired goal but unfortunately, it's not how you actually get there. If you could level the playing fields and start over, that would work. Alas, specific people have had too much power for too long. I guess you could argue it's a shitty deal for folks who miss out on jobs because of this but frankly, I'm not sure how sorry you can feel for people who are enjoy such privilege by comparison.

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FredFlintstone
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:44 pm
Location: West Park, Leeds

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby FredFlintstone » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:47 pm

If a rule was created here similar to the NFL Rooney rule it would be treated the same way. The two or three candidates for the job would be interviewed and if none of them were black then the Assistant Linebacker coach gets 'invited' for interview as a token. Over here it'd be something like the U14's academy coach already at the team, insultingly invited to interview for the role just to tick a box.

Football is a mercenary, cut throat, money making business. If the best candidate to take over from Rafa Benitez was a Chinese, female, lesbian dwarf she'd get the job. It's all about success. No club will avoid candidates just because they're not middle aged white men.

I saw that article in the Heil but I'm sure it's a rehash of another article talking about this kind of thing and they interviewed James for that one too. I still agree with him now. Possibly the reason there aren't more black managers is that it's relatively new in England. More and more are taking coaching courses and as there are more around, working their way up the system then more and more will get top jobs.

Think back to the likes of John Barnes - fast tracked to the top and flopped completely. There should be no tick box exercises. You work your way up through the system like everyone else. SAF didn't go straight to Old Trafford for his first management job. Arsene's first job wasn't at Arsenal. Take the badges, take an assistant role somewhere to learn the ropes then apply for a job at the likes of Chesterfield and work your way up the system same as anyone else.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby the flying pig » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:11 pm

FredFlintstone wrote:...Possibly the reason there aren't more black managers is that it's relatively new in England....


yeah, i mean, accepting that the PL jobs + england are the high profile managerial posts then that's a total of 21. of these:

(1) we do still value experience - around 5 of the 21 were born at a time when there were no black players to speak of in england [ferguson, wenger, hodgson, 'arry - at a stretch i'll add big sam to that list... tho the same age as, say, cyrille regis, the world was a very different place then - i can fully believe that Regis would have been discriminated against if he'd tried to start out in coaching]; and
(2) we love foreign [especially scottish but other 'gaelic' too, a little bit] managers - of the remaining 16, fully 13 hail from countries where there are almost no black people - rogers [norn iron], jol [the first good black dutch players were born in the 60s], mancini, moyes, laudrup, clarke, lambert [jock], southampton's guy, AVB, benitez, martinez, pulis [welsh], di canio.

so that really only leaves 3 jobs currently occupied by 'english' managers born at a time where there were black players around. pardew, adkins, and hughton. pardew has a decent job but the other two have definitely two of the least attractive & secure gigs in the division. anyway, a black manager has one of these three.

the real issue is how few young, even youngish, english managers we have. three of the top 21 posts is so few that it'd be totally unsurprising if there were no black managers amongst them.

of course all NFL head coaches are born & bred in the US [and of course the US has had a big black population for a couple of hundred years], meaning that it's a fair question to ask why their composition doens't reflect that of the wider population, or at least of that part of it that plays football at college & then goes into bottom tier coaching.

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AndyPaul
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:27 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby AndyPaul » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:33 pm

Blackwhite wrote:
AndyPaul wrote:But I would be pissed off if I missed out on a job interview even though I was the better candidate because the other guy is black.


So black up for the interview. Fucking hell man, has mini-Joofy taught you nought?


:lol: This is true, the modern day Martin Luther King :salute:

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MightyWhite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:38 am
Location: Notts

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby MightyWhite » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:03 pm

Is there any evidence that there's a queue of frustrated black former footballers desperately trying to get into football league management? Or is it a case of the race campaigners demanding more black faces in the dugout 'just because'?

With American Football, at one point there was a blanket ban on black players even playing, so you can understand why they're so keen to make amends on that score.
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portadown white
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby portadown white » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:55 pm

Football is a multi- billion pound business and yet the training and appointment of some of the most important employees is amateurish. Is there really another industry where someone like Shearer, with no experience, could take a job paying millions, with huge responsibllities? The whole thing seems so unprofessional.

As to the Rooney Rule - no thanks.

Eddies Boots
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 5:07 am
Location: Arizona

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby Eddies Boots » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:35 pm

As stated elsewhere NFL not the same as English football. There are plenty of non-English managers in English football. For all of which we have plenty of racially-charged epithets.
But has it got anything to do with racism in coaching or more of the movement to root racism out of the stands - if you respect your team's manager then you might end up respecting a non-white. Although if he has often said that he hates your team and his name includes the word wanker, then it might be self-defeating. :roll:

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: 'Rooney Rule' for English football managers

Postby Phil LUFC » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:54 am

FredFlintstone wrote:Think back to the likes of John Barnes - fast tracked to the top and flopped completely. There should be no tick box exercises. You work your way up through the system like everyone else. SAF didn't go straight to Old Trafford for his first management job. Arsene's first job wasn't at Arsenal. Take the badges, take an assistant role somewhere to learn the ropes then apply for a job at the likes of Chesterfield and work your way up the system same as anyone else.


This is also a good example of why appointing McDermott should inspire a bit of confidence, just over 9 years at Reading working his way up the ranks to the top job, then held it for 3 years. Head Scout -> U19 manager -> reserve team manager-> first team coach -> assistant manager -> manager. Also good to hear Naylor talking in this way too.

But yeah, this kind of progression is rare in the english game. It's more important to have a figure head, someone comfortable in front of the media and who understands the way the game works behind the scenes. The ideal person varies club to club, but most would welcome ex legends regardless of experience or race, look at the idiotic calls for Radebe to manage Leeds every time the job is available, or for him to be given a coaching role at least - very much the same as the clamour for Shearer (except they were stupid enough to actually do it).

At the end of the day, these managers surround themselves by important people, probably equally influencial in how the club is run but out of the media spotlight - the likes of Brian Kidd springs to mind, or Aladyce's legions of support staff. I don't think we have a problem with racism within the game in this country, but then, I wouldn't have guessed homophobia was that much of an issue either within the dressing room, even if its understandable that gay players might be afraid to publicly come out.


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