Dirty Music

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:06 pm

dirty leeds wrote:If you don't put your music on the big streaming sites it makes it nigh on impossible to be heard widely.

Does this matter? Should wider recognition necessarily a goal of a musician? Most musicians I know just like playing music. If being widely known is your goal then I guess you're in business and have to deal with all of that bullshit. Nobody is forcing you though.

dirty leeds wrote:The artist has even less power with the streaming sites and far less remuneration.

Actually I reckon that even though the streaming remuneration is undoubtedly a pittance, it's still better than the archaic major label system for two reasons - firstly because Spotify and Apple Music will put whatever you release up without question and never tell you an album is poor/lacking a single etc and secondly because artists can't become financially indebted to them in the manner that destroyed so many bands over the years.

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Tommy
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:18 pm

dirty leeds wrote:You cannot make some of the greatest music ever made by doing it as a fucking hobby!!! As I said before, Miles Davis could not have been Miles Davis as a part-timer.

Totally disagree. Miles Davis was unarguably great and I dearly love most of his music. However, he was the product of another era. If your theory is we should maintain the environment that produced him we'd have to recreate everything that went with it - the racism, the womanising, the drug addictions etc. I don't think that stuff will ever be the same again. This is my point about accepting that things change, sometimes rapidly. The era of the artist as an abusive libertine society broadly tolerates because of the quality of their art is on the cusp of being over. Ultimately how I feel about that doesn't matter because it will happen without my blessing regardless.

The Great Pyramid of Giza is admittedly incredible but the conditions that allowed it to happen are gone. We don't need one in every city, it's fine as a one off. This doesn't mean there won't be incredible man made structures in the future, just that they'll be different.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:37 pm

Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:If you don't put your music on the big streaming sites it makes it nigh on impossible to be heard widely.

Does this matter? Should wider recognition necessarily a goal of a musician? Most musicians I know just like playing music. If being widely known is your goal then I guess you're in business and have to deal with all of that bullshit. Nobody is forcing you though.

dirty leeds wrote:The artist has even less power with the streaming sites and far less remuneration.

Actually I reckon that even though the streaming remuneration is undoubtedly a pittance, it's still better than the archaic major label system for two reasons - firstly because Spotify and Apple Music will put whatever you release up without question and never tell you an album is poor/lacking a single etc and secondly because artists can't become financially indebted to them in the manner that destroyed so many bands over the years.


Fuck sake, Tommy, I said I wasn't going to get into this stuff again, but you don't half trot out some utter shite. :mrgreen:

First bit in bold, if you are going to be a professional, lifetime, career musician, yes, of course you need to be heard. I don't give a fuck about your mates who are musicians - which of us has spent the past 33 years as a professional music journalist interviewing, talking to, hanging out with etc etc professional musicians all the time and is likely to have a fairly good idea of their views on this stuff? I'm talking literally thousands of 'em, by the way: I actually have interviewed about 2,000 of the cunts. [And some of 'em were cunts.]

Second bit in bold - frankly some musicians, in order to grow into the impressive, ground-breaking talents they later became, needed some good A&R advice along the way. Not all labels were the way you describe and not all A&R guys were coked up loons. Berry Gordy and Smokey Robinson did some pretty damn fine work bringing on Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, for example - to quote just an obvious example or two from "my" area.

I can tell you now, the vast majority of the musicians I deal with every day think the Spotify model of streaming is pretty much close to evil.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm

Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:You cannot make some of the greatest music ever made by doing it as a fucking hobby!!! As I said before, Miles Davis could not have been Miles Davis as a part-timer.

Totally disagree. Miles Davis was unarguably great and I dearly love most of his music. However, he was the product of another era. If your theory is we should maintain the environment that produced him we'd have to recreate everything that went with it - the racism, the womanising, the drug addictions etc. I don't think that stuff will ever be the same again. This is my point about accepting that things change, sometimes rapidly. The era of the artist as an abusive libertine society broadly tolerates because of the quality of their art is on the cusp of being over. Ultimately how I feel about that doesn't matter because it will happen without my blessing regardless.

The Great Pyramid of Giza is admittedly incredible but the conditions that allowed it to happen are gone. We don't need one in every city, it's fine as a one off. This doesn't mean there won't be incredible man made structures in the future, just that they'll be different.


What you say above is irrelevant bullshit - and in any case I never said you had to recreate anything. I'm talking purely about the time it takes to become a great musician, and the application, and the practice... as well as the talent. I'm not talking about whether he fucked whores or took drugs or suffered from racism. I said he couldn't have done it as a part-timer. He could not have become as good as he was if only doing it as a hobby, when he got home from the bank or driving his taxi. He could have got a start, sure - happens all the time - but he could not have devoted himself to his art enough to record his best ever albums and reach those incredible heights if he was doing it alongside his day-job. And to do that he needs for his art to pay him at least enough to keep doing it.

Now I really am not going to go over all this shite again because it fucking annoyed me the first time.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:05 pm

:mrgreen: You weasel.

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:07 pm

dirty leeds wrote:First bit in bold, if you are going to be a professional, lifetime, career musician, yes, of course you need to be heard.

Then you have to ask if there's any pressing need for professional, lifelong, career musicians. Surely the market determines whether it's a good idea to set out to be a professional anything? For example, if I decided to become a zeppelin engineer, I reckon I'd find my opportunities limited. The fact that it was once a very lucrative industry doesn't mean much in the modern era. My opinion on whether or not that is a shame is irrelevant.

dirty leeds wrote:I don't give a fuck about your mates who are musicians - which of us has spent the past 33 years as a professional music journalist interviewing, talking to, hanging out with etc etc professional musicians all the time and is likely to have a fairly good idea of their views on this stuff? I'm talking literally thousands of 'em, by the way: I actually have interviewed about 2,000 of the cunts. [And some of 'em were cunts.]

You are indisputably better versed on how the music industry worked, maybe even works. I understand completely why you are attached to the way things have been done up until now. I get really attached to stuff too. However, things have changed and will continue to change. This is not necessarily an indictment of how things were, it's just a symptom of the passage of time.

dirty leeds wrote:Second bit in bold - frankly some musicians, in order to grow into the impressive, ground-breaking talents they later became, needed some good A&R advice along the way. Not all labels were the way you describe and not all A&R guys were coked up loons. Berry Gordy and Smokey Robinson did some pretty damn fine work bringing on Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, for example - to quote just an obvious example or two from "my" area.

Yes, great art was created using the paths you refer to above and yet great art will be produced in the future using methods that in no way resemble the above. Music existed before genuinely useful A&R men and will continue without them. I am not being glib, I mean this sincerely.

dirty leeds wrote:I can tell you now, the vast majority of the musicians I deal with every day think the Spotify model of streaming is pretty much close to evil.

And most musicians I encounter don't care or don't think about it. The ones that do care don't let it impact them to the extent that they will stop creating music because that's not why they play music.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:14 pm

No. Just no. Leave me alone. :mrgreen:

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dirty leeds
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:17 pm

Tommy wrote:You are indisputably better versed on how the music industry worked, maybe even works. I understand completely why you are attached to the way things have been done up until now. I get really attached to stuff too. However, things have changed and will continue to change. This is not necessarily an indictment of how things were, it's just a symptom of the passage of time.


That is the most patronising crap you have ever written on this subject, by the way. But no, I must leave this shit alone. Go and bother Reality. I'm done with you. :mrgreen:

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Tommy
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:20 pm

dirty leeds wrote:What you say above is irrelevant bullshit - and in any case I never said you had to recreate anything. I'm talking purely about the time it takes to become a great musician, and the application, and the practice... as well as the talent. I'm not talking about whether he fucked whores or took drugs or suffered from racism. I said he couldn't have done it as a part-timer. He could not have become as good as he was if only doing it as a hobby, when he got home from the bank or driving his taxi. He could have got a start, sure - happens all the time - but he could not have devoted himself to his art enough to record his best ever albums and reach those incredible heights if he was doing it alongside his day-job. And to do that he needs for his art to pay him at least enough to keep doing it.

Hard to quantify this. Miles Davis is such an outlier it's hard to use him as an example of how things should ideally be. Loads of bands spend years and insane amounts of money on creating music and are legitimately terrible. Coldplay have done little else but make music full time for going on years and they're probably getting worse. Does anyone here want to sit through the new U2 record? They've been at it for decades so they must be really good by now.

dirty leeds wrote:Now I really am not going to go over all this shite again because it fucking annoyed me the first time.

I'm totally the opposite - I love discussing this stuff. I have virtually no skin in the game though so maybe that's a contributing factor as to why.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:26 pm

Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:What you say above is irrelevant bullshit - and in any case I never said you had to recreate anything. I'm talking purely about the time it takes to become a great musician, and the application, and the practice... as well as the talent. I'm not talking about whether he fucked whores or took drugs or suffered from racism. I said he couldn't have done it as a part-timer. He could not have become as good as he was if only doing it as a hobby, when he got home from the bank or driving his taxi. He could have got a start, sure - happens all the time - but he could not have devoted himself to his art enough to record his best ever albums and reach those incredible heights if he was doing it alongside his day-job. And to do that he needs for his art to pay him at least enough to keep doing it.

Hard to quantify this. Miles Davis is such an outlier it's hard to use him as an example of how things should ideally be. Loads of bands spend years and insane amounts of money on creating music and are legitimately terrible. Coldplay have done little else but make music full time for going on years and they're probably getting worse. Does anyone here want to sit through the new U2 record? They've been at it for decades so they must be really good by now.

dirty leeds wrote:Now I really am not going to go over all this shite again because it fucking annoyed me the first time.

I'm totally the opposite - I love discussing this stuff. I have virtually no skin in the game though so maybe that's a contributing factor as to why.



Fuck off and stop putting words into my mouth. Just because some musicians spend all their lives trying to be good and end up being boring is irrelevant to my argument.
Mr. Reality!!! Tommy is bored. For fuck's sake talk to him...

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 pm

No, go away!!!!

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:28 pm

I mean it.... :mrgreen:

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:28 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Tommy wrote:You are indisputably better versed on how the music industry worked, maybe even works. I understand completely why you are attached to the way things have been done up until now. I get really attached to stuff too. However, things have changed and will continue to change. This is not necessarily an indictment of how things were, it's just a symptom of the passage of time.

That is the most patronising crap you have ever written on this subject, by the way.

Unfair. In just that quote I acknowledge that you know more about the music industry and then sincerely empathised with your point of view. I don't think my opinion on this matter is superior to anyone. I've had this discussion on and off the internet for years and thus, I can discuss it relentlessly and dispassionately. Please don't mistake that for arrogance, it's just something I've thought about an awful lot.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:30 pm

Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
Tommy wrote:You are indisputably better versed on how the music industry worked, maybe even works. I understand completely why you are attached to the way things have been done up until now. I get really attached to stuff too. However, things have changed and will continue to change. This is not necessarily an indictment of how things were, it's just a symptom of the passage of time.

That is the most patronising crap you have ever written on this subject, by the way.

Unfair. In just that quote I acknowledge that you know more about the music industry and then sincerely empathised with your point of view. I don't think my opinion on this matter is superior to anyone. I've had this discussion on and off the internet for years and thus, I can discuss it relentlessly and dispassionately. Please don't mistake that for arrogance, it's just something I've thought about an awful lot.


OK. But you are making a massive assumption about me with the "how it worked" and "attached" stuff. I'm attached to music and musicians and I just want to see them get paid.

Shooo!

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tommy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:38 pm

dirty leeds wrote:I'm attached to music and musicians and I just want to see them get paid.

That's actually what I meant. It's not a failing.

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Ontolly
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 pm
Location: Shrewsbury

Re: Dirty Music

Postby Ontolly » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:11 pm

Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:I'm attached to music and musicians and I just want to see them get paid.

That's actually what I meant. It's not a failing.

The fucking hypocrite is twisting your words beyond recognition Tommy. Watch your back :elephant:
The only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter was that his name wasn't Henry Porter.

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Tycipa
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:39 pm

Re: Dirty Music

Postby Tycipa » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:12 pm

In Tommy’s posts I hear the voice of Kevin Spacey in Se7en.

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: Dirty Music

Postby dirty leeds » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Ontolly wrote:
Tommy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:I'm attached to music and musicians and I just want to see them get paid.

That's actually what I meant. It's not a failing.

The fucking hypocrite is twisting your words beyond recognition Tommy. Watch your back :elephant:


:lol:

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Vampire
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:19 am

Re: Dirty Music

Postby Vampire » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:35 pm

For some strange reason, I’m enjoying the banter on this thread.
:mrgreen:
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: Dirty Music

Postby eric olthwaite » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 pm

Anyway, this thing on BBC4 Storyville about Laibach being the first outside band to play North Korea is fucking mental.


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