Dirty Music

[dirty leeds]

OK, dedicated music thread, then.

Hello Eric. I must feel a bit like a bloke'out of his time', eh? Cheeky bugger.
For your information, Jean-Pierre's lad, I realised I didn't really like rapping as a skill way back in the early '80s, when I was a mere slip of a 22- or 23-year-old and on holiday in the States. It was suddenly everywhere - well the early versions of it, backed by 'electro' beats - and while I thought the subculture side fairly interesting for five minutes, I just didn't enjoy the 'talking in rhythm' delivery. Didn't think it took much talent to do it reasonably well, especially since they were all nicking old soul and funk tunes for their rhythm tracks. Yes, it's developed a lot since then and the more 'conversational' or story-tellng style of someone like Common I can put up with, but rapping never leaves me stunned like a great singer does [even if some of the productions can be clever/entertaining].
I have lots of time for what some of the hip-hop dudes are saying too - Public Enemy in the eighties, De La Soul could be funny, Boots from The Coup is one of the wittiest guys around right now [he's in the current mag] - but, to be honest, I'd often rather read Chuck D's lyrics and interviews than have him barking at me over Bomb Squad productions.
The good thing about hip-hop, for me, has always been its tendency to reflect day-to-day life for a large group of African Americans [as well as some cartoony bollocks they invented for fun or to outrage Charlton Heston]. Post civil rights soul used to do that a lot in the seventies, but lost it all in the eighties to hip-hop, which was disappointing. People like Cody Chesnutt are picking up on this again, but it's not as rife as it used be in the time of Curtis Mayfield, Marvin, Stevie, Isleys, Scott-Heron etc. Indie label soul is flourishing now, though, which is encouraging.

Oh and, no, I don't keep these opinions from the readers. I can't be arsed. I employ good hip-hop writers, frequently put hip-hop geezers on the front [as well as shite R&B twats like Usher] and get on with writing about soul and sometimes jazz, and doing the editing bit. I co-own the mag, so there's nobody who can sack me for not liking every style of black music. [We can go out of business, of course.]

Something that does piss me off about the general media view of soul music is that it's by and large an 'old' music. People automatically think or talk about Aretha, Otis, Marvin or even Ray Charles when you say you like soul. Lots of people aren't even aware there has been any soul music since the eighties. The MOBOs lot, for example, appear to think modern black music is either hip-hop [or grime related, if UK] or R&B. They didn't have a jazz or a soul MOBO for about the first 10 years of their existence. Then the jazz guys protested outside the Albert Hall and won themselves an annual gong. The following year I organised a protest on behalf of the soul boys at the O2 - we stuck Omar, Bluey from Incognito, Ola Onabule and Rahsaan Patterson in my mate's black cab and they crashed the red carpet with posters I'd had made up [see the vid at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-MWFh-n-z0 - and, no, it's not my apostrophe, dammit]. They grudgingly made the R&B gong into an R&B/Soul award.
I interviewed Kanya King, who runs the MOBOs, and asked her about the lack of soul in their programme and she said she didn't think there was much new soul around. So I asked her what the fuck did she think people like Badu, Jill Scott, Benét, Maxwell, D'Angelo, Bev Knight, Bailey-Rae, Omar etc etc did, and she hadn't a clue what to say. Her deputy tried to tell me that Omar was a jazz act - something which Omar found funny when I told him.
Now we don't even bother with the MOBOs. They made themselves irrelevant when they fucked off out of London in an attempt to get away from irritants like Echoes and the jazz musicians, and also take advantage of cheaper venues in Scotland.

So anyway, enough bollocks and rambling from me to start this off. Do join in.
How about the issue of illegal downloads fucking up the music industry? That's always a good one, 'cause while it's easy to say, 'Fuck Universal and Sony for charging too much in the '70s and '80s for their albums and CDs, it's payback time', taking music for free unquestionably hits the artists themselves. The fuckers keep telling me how much it does!

Over to you...

[Blackwhite]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.

In transit and not much time to post, but which mag is it? Will pick it up.



More later when I'm settled; some interesting points you make.

[Oheddieeddie]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.
.

Unless of course you 'get' derailed.

So er anyway MOBO's bit racist innit? Discuss

[Blackwhite]

The MOBO stunt


to all involved. Piss funny too.

[Tycipa]

The MOBO stunt


to all involved. Piss funny too.

More sad than piss funny. Music is for listening to, but it became politicised and montised decades ago when the corporate machine wrapped its tentacles around our every listening pleasure. The likes of a Chris Blackwell or a Joe Boyd would find it impossible to start, flourish and deliver talent to our ears in these times. Would Berry Gordy make it, even though he created his own machine and took advantage of many poorly paid employees.
I remember going to a gig at the Jazz Cafe in Camden to see Emmylou Harris and was really fucking annoyed when,during one of her quieter numbers, one of her labels employees decided it would be a good idea to let many of us in earshot know her opinions on a certain clothing store. I told her to shut the fuck up so we could hear the music, fortunately before she could open her gob again one of her colleagues put a gentle restraining arm on her shoulder. I spoke at length later on with said colleague and being an older sort was exasperated as I about how the music business was full of her gob shite sort that showed no appreciation for music but only the glamour and the fame. Thankfully the music will prevail and occasionally surprise even the oldest of ears.
Just like Hurricane by Grace Jones did a couple of years back.

[ddwhite]

Is there some spurious link with rap to giraffe bread?

[dirty leeds]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.

In transit and not much time to post, but which mag is it? Will pick it up.



More later when I'm settled; some interesting points you make.

It's Echoes. Good luck with finding it right away: there are 60,000 newsagents and we don't sell 60,000 copies! If you have any real difficulty and still want one, let me know.

[sebastianlovemonkey]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.
.

Unless of course you 'get' derailed.

So er anyway MOBO's bit racist innit? Discuss

Have they ever given the Rolling Stones a gong, or Eminem say?

[dirty leeds]

The MOBO stunt


to all involved. Piss funny too.

More sad than piss funny. Music is for listening to, but it became politicised and montised decades ago when the corporate machine wrapped its tentacles around our every listening pleasure. The likes of a Chris Blackwell or a Joe Boyd would find it impossible to start, flourish and deliver talent to our ears in these times. Would Berry Gordy make it, even though he created his own machine and took advantage of many poorly paid employees.
I remember going to a gig at the Jazz Cafe in Camden to see Emmylou Harris and was really fucking annoyed when,during one of her quieter numbers, one of her labels employees decided it would be a good idea to let many of us in earshot know her opinions on a certain clothing store. I told her to shut the fuck up so we could hear the music, fortunately before she could open her gob again one of her colleagues put a gentle restraining arm on her shoulder. I spoke at length later on with said colleague and being an older sort was exasperated as I about how the music business was full of her gob shite sort that showed no appreciation for music but only the glamour and the fame. Thankfully the music will prevail and occasionally surprise even the oldest of ears.
Just like Hurricane by Grace Jones did a couple of years back.

It's an unfortunate thing, but I've found that, by and large, major record company PRs and marketing types who frequent live events are mostly not committed music fans, merely people doing a job of work in the entertainment industry. They usually have little respect for or interest in their actual artists. The better ones disguise this well. There are inevitably lots more who don't and, after a couple of drinks on expenses, readily spout bollocks of the nature you encountered. The only thing I can think to say in their defence is that if you go out to gigs about three or four nights a week, it soon becomes a bit fucking boring - especially if you're not there because you like the music, but because you have to show your face for the company. They should still shut the fuck up, though, and blend in.
It's different with most indie labels, because the staff have more chance of being actual music enthusiasts. They might even like the guy on stage!

As for being the new Chris Blackwell or Berry Gordy... well, technology has made it easier to make a record these days [without an expensive studio, for example] and the internet has made it much easier to get your music to the public, so you can always get a start. Trouble is, the net also has the major disadvantage that, once it's out there, a majority of people will just take it for free, so you won't get paid for it. This is fine for a short while, when you're establishing an audience, but you do need to earn a living at some point. You can do this by playing live, of course, but you're fucked if what you really want to do is record great albums.
Anyway, there are loads of good indie labels around now and because of the internet the big guys can't freeze them out on distribution any more. So in some ways it's actually easier for a Chris Blackwell to spot a niche that he likes and get a little label going. Making it pay and growing it to any size is the difficult part. It can be done, especially in America, where your initial audiences are larger, but it's a real challenge to establish yourself as a genuinely large indie. Many of the people who have done it have come from major labels and brought investment with them through their contacts. Dome Records, a little soul label from the UK, was formed exactly this way by Peter Robinson, a bloke who worked for several majors and, because he liked soul, set up his own soul label. They've been going 20 years now.
Don't forget, Berry Gordy and Chris Blackwell did what they did when the major labels also held sway and really could control distribution. True, there were more 'majors' back then; now they have concentrated into just a few, but my point is that some of greatest rock/pop/soul/etc music was made during the '60s and '70s when the big boys were on top and providing either the underlying finance or the distribution.

The MOBOs, incidentally, are actually a very small thing. Their staff is tiny, maybe half a dozen. They just hire cheap interns when it comes around to awards time [which is coming up soon]. It's just unfortunate that there small staff really know next to fuck all about the music they are so supposed to be celebrating, as I found out by talking to them.

[dirty leeds]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.
.

Unless of course you 'get' derailed.

So er anyway MOBO's bit racist innit? Discuss

Have they ever given the Rolling Stones a gong, or Eminem say?

They gave one to Mick Hucknall in their very first year. They do do white guys sometimes, just to prove they mean it when they say 'Of Black Origin'.

[dirty leeds]

The MOBO stunt


to all involved. Piss funny too.

More sad than piss funny. Music is for listening to, but it became politicised and montised decades ago when the corporate machine wrapped its tentacles around our every listening pleasure. The likes of a Chris Blackwell or a Joe Boyd would find it impossible to start, flourish and deliver talent to our ears in these times. Would Berry Gordy make it, even though he created his own machine and took advantage of many poorly paid employees.
I remember going to a gig at the Jazz Cafe in Camden to see Emmylou Harris and was really fucking annoyed when,during one of her quieter numbers, one of her labels employees decided it would be a good idea to let many of us in earshot know her opinions on a certain clothing store. I told her to shut the fuck up so we could hear the music, fortunately before she could open her gob again one of her colleagues put a gentle restraining arm on her shoulder. I spoke at length later on with said colleague and being an older sort was exasperated as I about how the music business was full of her gob shite sort that showed no appreciation for music but only the glamour and the fame. Thankfully the music will prevail and occasionally surprise even the oldest of ears.
Just like Hurricane by Grace Jones did a couple of years back.

It's an unfortunate thing, but I've found that, by and large, major record company PRs and marketing types who frequent live events are mostly not committed music fans, merely people doing a job of work in the entertainment industry. They usually have little respect for or interest in their actual artists. The better ones disguise this well. There are inevitably lots more who don't and, after a couple of drinks on expenses, readily spout bollocks of the nature you encountered. The only thing I can think to say in their defence is that if you go out to gigs about three or four nights a week, it soon becomes a bit fucking boring - especially if you're not there because you like the music, but because you have to show your face for the company. They should still shut the fuck up, though, and blend in.
It's different with most indie labels, because the staff have more chance of being actual music enthusiasts. They might even like the guy on stage!

As for being the new Chris Blackwell or Berry Gordy... well, technology has made it easier to make a record these days [without an expensive studio, for example] and the internet has made it much easier to get your music to the public, so you can always get a start. Trouble is, the net also has the major disadvantage that, once it's out there, a majority of people will just take it for free, so you won't get paid for it. This is fine for a short while, when you're establishing an audience, but you do need to earn a living at some point. You can do this by playing live, of course, but you're fucked if what you really want to do is record great albums.
Anyway, there are loads of good indie labels around now and because of the internet the big guys can't freeze them out on distribution any more. So in some ways it's actually easier for a Chris Blackwell to spot a niche that he likes and get a little label going. Making it pay and growing it to any size is the difficult part. It can be done, especially in America, where your initial audiences are larger, but it's a real challenge to establish yourself as a genuinely large indie. Many of the people who have done it have come from major labels and brought investment with them through their contacts. Dome Records, a little soul label from the UK, was formed exactly this way by Peter Robinson, a bloke who worked for several majors and, because he liked soul, set up his own soul label. They've been going 20 years now.
Don't forget, Berry Gordy and Chris Blackwell did what they did when the major labels also held sway and really could control distribution. True, there were more 'majors' back then; now they have concentrated into just a few, but my point is that some of greatest rock/pop/soul/etc music was made during the '60s and '70s when the big boys were on top and providing either the underlying finance or the distribution.

The MOBOs, incidentally, are actually a very small thing. Their staff is tiny, maybe half a dozen. They just hire cheap interns when it comes around to awards time [which is coming up soon]. It's just unfortunate that their small staff really know next to fuck all about the music they are so supposed to be celebrating, as I found out by talking to them.

[Oheddieeddie]

Nice one mate, now we can talk without derailing.
.

Unless of course you 'get' derailed.

So er anyway MOBO's bit racist innit? Discuss

Have they ever given the Rolling Stones a gong, or Eminem say?

They gave one to Mick Hucknall in their very first year. They do do white guys sometimes, just to prove they mean it when they say 'Of Black Origin'.

Sort of like a sympathy shag then?

[sebastianlovemonkey]

Have they ever given the Rolling Stones a gong, or Eminem say?

They gave one to Mick Hucknall in their very first year. They do do white guys sometimes, just to prove they mean it when they say 'Of Black Origin'.[/quote]

Well it's good that they play their get out of jail free card but Urgggh! Hucknall, the man should be done for crimes against music.

...fucking three quote rule sucks,

[London_White]

Hucknall, the man should be done for crimes against music.

I have been going to gigs since 1979 and can wholeheartedly agree with this. I saw a band as support to Echo and The Bunnymen at the YMCA in Tottenham Court Road in 1980 I think. the Band was called The Frantic Elevators. they were without doubt the worst band I ever saw - and I've seen some dross over the years. The manc twat was the lead vocalist - didn't find that out until the early 90s.

[eric olthwaite]

OK, dedicated music thread, then.

Hello Eric. I must feel a bit like a bloke'out of his time', eh? Cheeky bugger.

Was only joshing with you, really. I s'pose there's an argument to say that the elements of self-referencing and re-cycling / sampling in rap can be compared with similar approaches in contemporary film / art / architecture and that therefore rap / hip-hop is of its time. It's the nature of contemporary culture, innit?

But, y'know, 'minority' enthusiasms are always good

Olthwaite Jr is, by the by, a streetdance / breaking champion of sorts. I do quite like the fact that he's developed quite specific ideas about what he likes / doesn't like at a young age. Because music was so tribal when I was a kid, I really can't be doing with the way a lot of kids listen to Guns'N'Roses and Bieber and Kings of Leon and regard it all equally. T'aint right. When you're a kid you should be, I dunno, more particular. I like some of the stuff he (and my daughters) are into and hate other bits.

How about the issue of illegal downloads fucking up the music industry? That's always a good one, 'cause while it's easy to say, 'Fuck Universal and Sony for charging too much in the '70s and '80s for their albums and CDs, it's payback time', taking music for free unquestionably hits the artists themselves. The fuckers keep telling me how much it does!

Over to you...

My preferred music delivery medium these days is (paid) Spotify. As far as I'm aware, artists get more from that than they do YouTube and LastFM, and I'm not keen in principle of the notion of unpaid creative endeavour (said the unpaid SQB mag writer...). For an old git like me, though, the idea of leasing your music collection rather than owning it is quite hard to come to terms with. Think what I'd lose if Spotify goes tits up.

I do rip some mp3s off YouTube for the kids, but this is largely when a particular mix or song is not available from other sources; try to avoid it otherwise.

[gazurtoids]

I have a paid spotify account but, don't kid yourself, the artists still make an absolute pittance out of it. I use it to preview albums and then I buy the CD/record if I like it. Often, the convenience means that I keep listening to it on spotify even though I own the hard copy but (a) I know the artist has been [give or take label cuntishnees] appropriately paid and (b) I don't lose it if spotify tanks, as you suggest. There's a handful of stuff I listen to occasionally on there but not enough to buy. I think that's probably acceptable.

[Proud to be Leeds]

My preferred music delivery medium these days is (paid) Spotify.

For me it has to be Bandcamp. I love going on there to find new unheard of music, and thankfully the Hip Hop/Soul/Dub(and step) sections are, generally, of good quality. And according their blurb the website seems to be doing well for the artists:

To date, artists have made $25,427,609 using Bandcamp, and $1,748,743 in the past 30 days alone.

Albums outsell tracks 5 to 1 (in the rest of the music buying world, tracks outsell albums 16 to 1).

On name-your-price albums, fans pay an average of 50% more than the minimum.

We've driven 3,805,464 paid transactions and served 41,081,110 downloads to happy fans.

Dirty Leeds, I was wondering if you could recommend any festivals. In recent years I've been to Openair Frauenfeld in Switzerland, which although enjoyable, felt a bit too commercial for me; and Hip Hop Kemp in Czech Republic, which was awesome.

[dirty leeds]

One of the many differences between Waccoe and here is just happening on this thread. You raise the subject of artists being reasonably recompensed for their work as against the freedom to use the internet and what free/illegal downloads are or might be doing to the music industry as a whole, and on here people discuss the subject. On Waccoe, when this came up on a thread I didn't start, it took about a half page before some spotty little cunt with a huge opinion of himself was calling me a moron for suggesting that taking everything for free was not really what the artists wanted. Descended into a shouting match about the meaning of the word 'theft', if I recall Happy days.

We have a recurring questionnaire in the mag, '20 Questions', basically a lift from The Guardian a few years back, where we ask about 15 of the same questions each month, with a few tailored to the particular artist thrown in. They're a mix of serious and semi-serious ['Has Stevie made a decent album since Hotter Than July?' usually has 'em twisting a bit, Stevie being virtually untouchable to most black musicians], but since that Waccoe slanging match I've inserted another regular: 'Illegal downloads: acceptable 'cause they spread your music to the many? Or plain theft from musicians?'
So far everybody has gone for 'theft'.

[dirty leeds]

My preferred music delivery medium these days is (paid) Spotify.

For me it has to be Bandcamp. I love going on there to find new unheard of music, and thankfully the Hip Hop/Soul/Dub(and step) sections are, generally, of good quality. And according their blurb the website seems to be doing well for the artists:

To date, artists have made $25,427,609 using Bandcamp, and $1,748,743 in the past 30 days alone.

Albums outsell tracks 5 to 1 (in the rest of the music buying world, tracks outsell albums 16 to 1).

On name-your-price albums, fans pay an average of 50% more than the minimum.

We've driven 3,805,464 paid transactions and served 41,081,110 downloads to happy fans.

Dirty Leeds, I was wondering if you could recommend any festivals. In recent years I've been to Openair Frauenfeld in Switzerland, which although enjoyable, felt a bit too commercial for me; and Hip Hop Kemp in Czech Republic, which was awesome.

Festivals are not my personal strong point. Never been a fan. Except, of course, when the Bahamas Tourist Board wanted us to cover their inaugural bash a few years back, and also when the St Lucia folks suggested we might like to write about their Jazz Festival. Did that twice! It's not really a proper jazz fest - they always include R&B/soul acts like Mary J Blige or Anita Baker, and only a few of the jazzier performers are more jazzy than either smooth-jazz or jazz-funk, but the surroundings are pretty spectacular.
My jazz bloke is always pottering off to Europe these days. Just been to Finland and Belgium and frequently attends the North Sea Fest in Rotterdam.
The reggae writer enjoys Sunsplash or whatever it's morphed into these days, and he's occasionally pissing off to Europe, usually Spain or Germany, for the newer festivals.
As for hip-hop, I'm afraid I can't help you. My hip-hop fellah mostly stays at home or is trying to organise himself a trip to NYC.
I rarely go further than the Jazz Café now.

[eric olthwaite]

I have a paid spotify account but, don't kid yourself, the artists still make an absolute pittance out of it.

Oh, aye. Just saying it's a step up from outright theft.