O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

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Vampire
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Vampire » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:53 am

SimonB wrote:There used to be a tax break for taking our private medical insurance, but Gordon Brown (I think) decided to give the NHS an increase of funds and took away the tax break saying that the NHS would be able to supply everything so private insurance wasn't necessary. Now might be the time to tempt more people back into the self pay or self insure market and reduce the burden on the NHS that way.


Tax breaks for private healthcare is an example of "middle class welfare" and IMO indefensible. State taxes shouldn't be used to subsidise the wealthy.

I agree, however, that private healthcare should be encouraged as it takes pressure off the state system, encourages innovation, and increases overall resources for healthcare.

A better idea than tax breaks to incentivise private healthcare over here is that those earning above a certain threshold pay a higher medicare levy (the hypothecated health tax) unless they take out private insurance.

I also think the "free at point of use" principle should be removed (except for the poor) for reasons stated. Why should a millionaire pay nothing to visit a GP?
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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SimonB
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby SimonB » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:07 pm

Vampire wrote:Tax breaks for private healthcare is an example of "middle class welfare" and IMO indefensible. State taxes shouldn't be used to subsidise the wealthy.

I agree, however, that private healthcare should be encouraged as it takes pressure off the state system, encourages innovation, and increases overall resources for healthcare.

A better idea than tax breaks to incentivise private healthcare over here is that those earning above a certain threshold pay a higher medicare levy (the hypothecated health tax) unless they take out private insurance.

I also think the "free at point of use" principle should be removed (except for the poor) for reasons stated. Why should a millionaire pay nothing to visit a GP?


To my mind that is the same thing sold a different way. Either way you get a tax break to reduce the burden faced by the NHS.

I support the free at the point of use principal, but I also think that use could be at a NHS facility or a Private facility.
We had a meeting at work today and I was asked what steps I would take in the event of a fire. Apparently "fucking big ones" wasn't the right answer

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Vampire
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Vampire » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:13 pm

SimonB wrote:
Vampire wrote:Tax breaks for private healthcare is an example of "middle class welfare" and IMO indefensible. State taxes shouldn't be used to subsidise the wealthy.

I agree, however, that private healthcare should be encouraged as it takes pressure off the state system, encourages innovation, and increases overall resources for healthcare.

A better idea than tax breaks to incentivise private healthcare over here is that those earning above a certain threshold pay a higher medicare levy (the hypothecated health tax) unless they take out private insurance.

I also think the "free at point of use" principle should be removed (except for the poor) for reasons stated. Why should a millionaire pay nothing to visit a GP?


To my mind that is the same thing sold a different way. Either way you get a tax break to reduce the burden faced by the NHS.

I support the free at the point of use principal, but I also think that use could be at a NHS facility or a Private facility.


It is not the same thing at all. A tax break reduces income tax contributions for those wealthy enough to afford private healthcare. It is a state subsidy for the wealthy. An additional levy on high earners for healthcare, on the other hand, means they are paying more tax not less - but they have the choice whether to contribute that additional tax to the state healthcare system or to put it towards private healthcare.

Re free at the point of use - you haven't answered my question: why should a millionaire pay no charge to visit a GP?
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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SimonB
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby SimonB » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:27 pm

Because a millionaire has already contributed to the tax system that funds the NHS. I support the free at the point of use principal.

I question who provides the healthcare and I also question the extent of services provided by the NHS but not that overriding principal.

And I still disagree with your point that it is different. Either reduces the tax a richer person pays if they agree to reduce the burden on the healthcare system. Whatever you call it makes no difference to the outcome.
We had a meeting at work today and I was asked what steps I would take in the event of a fire. Apparently "fucking big ones" wasn't the right answer

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Vampire
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Vampire » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:36 pm

SimonB wrote:Because a millionaire has already contributed to the tax system that funds the NHS. I support the free at the point of use principal.

I question who provides the healthcare and I also question the extent of services provided by the NHS but not that overriding principal.

And I still disagree with your point that it is different. Either reduces the tax a richer person pays if they agree to reduce the burden on the healthcare system. Whatever you call it makes no difference to the outcome.


It is different - you are missing the point. An additional healthcare levy on high earners patently DOESN'T reduce the tax they pay. They are paying MORE. But, they have a choice to contribute that additional levy to state healthcare or towards a private health insurance premium. A tax break on the other hand REDUCES the tax paid by wealthy people. You're a bright bloke Si - think it through from the starting point of someone paying $X in tax and then FROM THAT STARTING POINT paying X- tax break (subsidy) in one scenario versus X+levy (whether state or towards private) in the other. And the latter raises more overall resources for healthcare than the latter.

Re free at the point of use - yes the millionaire pays tax to fund healthcare but he also pays taxes to fund unemployment or other benefits - doesn't mean he should get them whether he needs them or not. Making anything free (except as a safety net for the poor or where the service is mandatory because of externalities) is bad economic principle as it encourages over-use and misallocation of resources viz a viz genuine demand.
There will be no end to the problems afflicting mankind until economists become rulers, or, by some miracle, rulers become economists.

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SimonB
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby SimonB » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:52 pm

We will have to agree to disagree
We had a meeting at work today and I was asked what steps I would take in the event of a fire. Apparently "fucking big ones" wasn't the right answer

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:13 pm

Vampire wrote:
private healthcare ... encourages innovation

Specific examples please.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:14 pm

Blackwhite wrote:
Vampire wrote:
private healthcare ... encourages innovation

Specific examples please.

They invented the wallet biopsy.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:17 pm

I was also looking out for "increases value for money" despite the obvious evidences to the contrary everywhere, ever.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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topbin
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O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby topbin » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:04 pm

But the inefficiencies, Blackwhite, the inefficiencies! The private sector doesn't have any of those.......

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:17 pm

topbin wrote:But the inefficiencies, Blackwhite, the inefficiencies! The private sector doesn't have any of those.......

Exactly. I'm in the private sector now and everywhere I look there are savings to be made, easily and with little pain. When I was paid by the public we'd fight over pennies.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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AndyPaul
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby AndyPaul » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:50 pm

I work in private healthcare now, previously with NHS but turned into a NHS foundation trust and it turned into an unpleasant experience.
Foundation trusts are very close to private healthcare

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:24 am

A&E, cancer care, maternity, nationwide program of closures coming soon.



Unifying complex surgery into specialist centres makes clinical sense. This? You decide, at the ballot box. Or when someone you care about suffers as a consequence.

Vandals. Amateurs. Jeremy Cunt's smug face somehow still not stoved in...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Tycipa
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Tycipa » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:59 pm

Been in Jimmy's since Friday watching the old man slip away. Forgot how god awful hospitals can be but massively impressed by the people who work with them.

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Ponte
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O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Ponte » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:35 pm

Tycipa wrote:Been in Jimmy's since Friday watching the old man slip away. Forgot how god awful hospitals can be but massively impressed by the people who work with them.

Sorry to hear that.
You are correct, NHS staff work wonders.

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Blackwhite
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:00 pm

Good luck with it all T.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

Kummel
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Kummel » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:02 pm

Blackwhite wrote:Good luck with it all T.


Think that you, young man, need to get yourself down to a few games as opposed to immersing yourself in the sad events of the lives of others, you may find it helps
Kummel

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Shorn Derry
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O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Shorn Derry » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:52 am

Nothing of what has happened to the NHS over the last 6 years has been voted for by the electorate. The Coalition came in with "No top down reorganisation" yet within weeks Lansley produced the bill so complex that no one understood it. This removed the government from any obligation to provide Healthcare. That's now various NHS organisations, CCGs NHS England etc., responsibility. All Government does is set the budgets for each organisation. In 2010 the NHS was in surplus, the deficit now is £2.4B. Between 2009 and 2020 the expenditure will have risen by £35B of which £24B is inflation, the remainder represents less than 1% per annum, this is the lowest increase since the NHS was founded. But even to balance the budget by 2020 requires £22B "efficiency" savings. Step forward "Sustainability and Transformation Plans", STP. I remember this as an additive I put in the oil of clapped out cars to try to improve performance and economy. It made no discernible improvement. In 1977 the company paid a $0.5 M civil penalty over claims it made and in 1996 $0.9M for false advertising.
I owe my last 46 years of life to the NHS. It wasn't clapped out in 2010 when bequeathed to the present Government, but it will be by 2020. Ten disastrous years. It makes me ashamed to live in the UK. We face hospital closures, A&E facilities being withdrawn to all but 40 specialist hospitals and the continuing demise of care for the elderly - of which I will be one.
We should all get off our arses and fight this situation. If not we will no longer live in a civilised country.

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby jackos » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:02 am

Kummel wrote:Think that you, young man, need to get yourself down to a few games as opposed to immersing yourself in the sad events of the lives of others, you may find it helps


Wrong thread mate.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
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Re: O/T The NHS Appreciation Memorial Thread

Postby Blackwhite » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:27 am

Shorn Derry wrote:Nothing of what has happened to the NHS over the last 6 years has been voted for by the electorate. The Coalition came in with "No top down reorganisation" yet within weeks Lansley produced the bill so complex that no one understood it. This removed the government from any obligation to provide Healthcare. That's now various NHS organisations, CCGs NHS England etc., responsibility. All Government does is set the budgets for each organisation. In 2010 the NHS was in surplus, the deficit now is £2.4B. Between 2009 and 2020 the expenditure will have risen by £35B of which £24B is inflation, the remainder represents less than 1% per annum, this is the lowest increase since the NHS was founded. But even to balance the budget by 2020 requires £22B "efficiency" savings. Step forward "Sustainability and Transformation Plans", STP. I remember this as an additive I put in the oil of clapped out cars to try to improve performance and economy. It made no discernible improvement. In 1977 the company paid a $0.5 M civil penalty over claims it made and in 1996 $0.9M for false advertising.
I owe my last 46 years of life to the NHS. It wasn't clapped out in 2010 when bequeathed to the present Government, but it will be by 2020. Ten disastrous years. It makes me ashamed to live in the UK. We face hospital closures, A&E facilities being withdrawn to all but 40 specialist hospitals and the continuing demise of care for the elderly - of which I will be one.
We should all get off our arses and fight this situation. If not we will no longer live in a civilised country.

Amen, brother :salute:
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.


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