Word up!

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FER
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Re: Word up!

Postby FER » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:06 pm

Fuck sake;
Fucks sake;
Fuck's sake;
Fucks' sake.

Which is correct? As in Oh for ...!
Squareball Prediction League Champion 2004/2005

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: Word up!

Postby the flying pig » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:11 pm

FER wrote:Fuck sake;
Fucks sake;
Fuck's sake;
Fucks' sake.

Which is correct? As in Oh for ...!


C, indubitably. the f bomb here is replacing God, Christ, Pete, pity, etc in any of the well-estbalished non-sweary 'for *'s sake's.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:24 pm

FER wrote:Fuck sake;
Fucks sake;
Fuck's sake;
Fucks' sake.

Which is correct? As in Oh for ...!

3&4.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Word up!

Postby eric olthwaite » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:43 pm

Not sure how 4 makes sense Musta?

1 would be ok if you were just objecting to Japanese alcohol

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:Not sure how 4 makes sense Musta?

1 would be ok if you were just objecting to Japanese alcohol

Multiple fucks innit.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:58 pm

"Try and ..."
Another battle lost. Ubiquitous now, nowt to be done I'm afraid.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Word up!

Postby Blackwhite » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:06 pm

Mustafaster wrote:"Try and ..."
Another battle lost. Ubiquitous now, nowt to be done I'm afraid.

I'll try and survive.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Devi
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Re: Word up!

Postby Devi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:15 pm

Blackwhite wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:"Try and ..."
Another battle lost. Ubiquitous now, nowt to be done I'm afraid.

I'll try and survive.


You should of.
I like it. What is it?

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:20 pm

Blackwhite wrote:
Mustafaster wrote:"Try and ..."
Another battle lost. Ubiquitous now, nowt to be done I'm afraid.

I'll try and survive.

Try putting that sentence in the past.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Devi
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Re: Word up!

Postby Devi » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:46 pm

FaceBook meme wrote:'i' before 'e'?

Except when your foreign neighbour, Keith, receives eight counterfeit beige sleighs from feisty caffeinated weightlifters.

Then it's weird.


I like that.
I like it. What is it?

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Blackwhite
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Re: Word up!

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:08 am

Of interest only to musta, but Tony Monaco's story about the evolution of language in response to dominant FOXP2 mutant alleles has been rocking on its heels for a while, and at first glance takes a knockout punch here. (I'd skip the results and go to the discussion after the intro musta, heavy genomics and functional genetics).

At second glance though, the kid is still moving on the canvas...
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:34 am

Blackwhite wrote:Of interest only to musta, but Tony Monaco's story about the evolution of language in response to dominant FOXP2 mutant alleles has been rocking on its heels for a while, and at first glance takes a knockout punch here. (I'd skip the results and go to the discussion after the intro musta, heavy genomics and functional genetics).

At second glance though, the kid is still moving on the canvas...

Cheers.
Supports the growing feeling that FOXP2 is an enhancer rather than the single determiner.
Still, the fact is that damage to FOXP2 seriously damages language processing with no effect on any other cognitive function, as far as we can see, which was the research that kicked the debate off in the first place.
But this research shows that the sweep is significantly older than previously thought.
So, FOXP2 is the Enforcer, not the Mob Boss.
Especially interesting was the "bottleneck" stuff.

Once again, thanks a lot.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Word up!

Postby Blackwhite » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:38 am

The subtle effects on expression of nearby - and sometimes far away - genes is a space where we're still working out the logic. So the gene might be the mob boss after all, just more interestingly (subtly) regulated in its effects.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Word up!

Postby eric olthwaite » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:53 pm

A fine addition to a gentleman’s vocabulary:


Son of Leeds
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Re: Word up!

Postby Son of Leeds » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:20 pm

Forgive me for bringing down to baby level - I'm Eg. Lit. - but does this mean they've found a language gene to support Noam's theory of a mutation?
Leeds United is ruining my life.

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Blackwhite
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Re: Word up!

Postby Blackwhite » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:20 pm

Son of Leeds wrote:Forgive me for bringing down to baby level - I'm Eg. Lit. - but does this mean they've found a language gene to support Noam's theory of a mutation?

Oof...I'm little tired to be getting at this, and musta has kept up with it better than me, but Tony Monaco some years ago described a candidate locus, importantly for the theory, mutations in which were pathologic in the real world.


The importance is a very open question (did you read the most recent paper I linked for instance?)

Musta, help him out, he's 106 don'tchaknow.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:57 am

Son of Leeds wrote:Forgive me for bringing down to baby level - I'm Eg. Lit. - but does this mean they've found a language gene to support Noam's theory of a mutation?

Long post incoming!
Disclaimer: You'll soon notice that this post is hedged around with modal verbs and adverbs. That's because most of this is still ongoing investigation, little is proven 100% still.
Chomsky's assertion that Language is the result of a genetic mutation unique to humans was a bit like Darwin's theory of Evolution. It seems blindingly obvious but how come nobody thought of it before?
Like evolution, later research provided empirical proof he was right. Unlike evolutionary theory we haven't had very long at it. Chomsky's groundbreaking work was published in 1956 and the double helix had only just been discovered.

There's no single gene responsible for Language.
There, I've said it.

However, it seems likely that FOXP2 on chromosome 7 has a mutation in humans that has a decisive role to play.
It seems likely that the FOXP2 mutation makes it possible for two types of memory to work together. Humans can use declarative memory (knowing what) and procedural memory (knowing how) at the same time. No other animal can do that, and it's necessary for Language.
So we might say that FOXP2 in its human expression may serve as a kind of connector that allows different types of cognitive function to access each other.
And that makes Language possible.

There's two main reasons for thinking that FOXP2 is a major player in Language acquisition.

1. People who have damage to the FOXP2 gene have very serious problems in processing language, but seem to have no other noticeable cognitive impairment that can't be attributed back to the paucity of their language. They have no spatial awareness impairment for example.
This backs up Chomsky's theory that the language faculty is a stand-alone system. All the evidence points to this being the case. Not only the FOXP2 impairment.
The opposite is also true. People who have severe cognitive in other areas speak perfectly well.
At the current state of knowledge it's hard to argue against him. Some do, of course, but it's mostly hand waving and LOOK AT ME!

2. Through mitochondrial DNA it's possible to date when a genetic mutation probably happened.
The FOXP2 mutation probably happened around the time that Language emerged. This could be coincidence and we don't know exactly when Language emerged because spoken language leaves no fossils. But human behaviour does, and around 100-200kya humans suddenly begin to be symbolic creatures, and everything flows from that.
This all leads Chomsky and most others to think that Language didn't slowly develop over a very long time, but happened very quickly as the FOXP2 mutation spread throughout the species.
You have to remember that the earliest humans were a very small tribe, possibly a collection of tribes, but the numbers were tiny. A genetic mutation that gave an evolutionary advantage ( and Language is a massive evolutionary advantage) would spread through the population in a few generations.

So, nobody knows exactly what the FOXP2 mutation does yet, but it seems to be fundamental.
There have been experiments with mice given the human expression of FOXP2 and whilst obviously they didn't start speaking, they did show advanced cognitive skills.

Absolutely enthralling area of study advancing at a terrifying rate. Very very hard to keep up if you're not in the game at a high level, but it's fun trying.
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

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eric olthwaite
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Re: Word up!

Postby eric olthwaite » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:35 am

Not related to language, but I saw a lovely quote regarding ‘higher’ cognition and uniqueness the other day, from philosopher John Gray:

‘Humankind is the only species which doesn’t learn from its mistakes’

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Mustafaster
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Re: Word up!

Postby Mustafaster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:50 am

eric olthwaite wrote:Not related to language, but I saw a lovely quote regarding ‘higher’ cognition and uniqueness the other day, from philosopher John Gray:

‘Humankind is the only species which doesn’t learn from its mistakes’

Aye.
Might have something to do with language obliquely.
The thing about declarative memory and procedural memory working simultaneously.
We tell ourselves stories constantly and that sometimes prevents us from learning from mistakes.
Animals don't tell themselves stories. If they trip over a stone they don't convince themselves it was the stone's fault.

" What a piece of work is a man."
Mirrors and copulation are abominable, since they both multiply the numbers of men.

Son of Leeds
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:13 pm

Re: Word up!

Postby Son of Leeds » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:46 am

Thanks, Musta. I feel like the enthusiastic primary school kid with not much ability whom the teachers indulge because he sits quietly at the back and doesn't bully the SEN pupils.

I listened to a YouTube vid of Chomsky laying out the mutation thesis and thought, 'Oh, dear Noam, don't be a crank after all.' I feel kind of uplifted to think he really is a genius.

May I trouble you with another question? I think a lot about metaphor and have a hunch that metaphor is integral to language. It's possible to consider an entirely literal language on Gradgrind lines, and the language of science being mathematical and exact tries to avoid it. But when scientists explain theory in language it's instinctively metaphorical. There wasn't a Big Bang because it was energy, not matter, so no sound. And why 'big'? Because it alliterates, stupid, and has one syllable so it's onamatapoeic. (I can never spell that). Metaphor seems as inevitable as a main clause. We say that prices go up. There's no logical reason why the graph can't be inverted so that the more expensive things get the more the prices go down. But we all say 'up'. It feels up/ So I wonder if children learn metaphor as part of the natural stages of language development. Is there a time when metaphor kicks in, like past tenses? Is it fundamental to cognition or is it learned as a conscious technique, from example? Do children absorb metaphor but not simile? Does it precede internalising the main clause? Is there any work on this?

So many questions, so little time.
Leeds United is ruining my life.


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