t'premier leeg.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

t'premier leeg.

Postby the flying pig » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:49 pm

a couple of recent stories have really disturbed me. i know it's been said many times before but are we genuinely better off out of it? i just don't get it.

two examples:

(1) Tevez

top player but what a miserable carry-on.

last season the [bizarre] excuse was some kind of 'personality clash' with citeh's chief exec garry cook... how can an argentian peasant who seemingly doesn't speak a word of english have a fall out with his [english] football club's chief exec?

this season the excuse is missing his kids. the same kids who he missed last season that he [according to the tabs of the time] fucked off to tenerife with some tart when given time to go and and visit them. kids who are seemingly happy to move to spain or even italy but not england.

who knows what the real story is. were they both [extremely] thinly veiled attempts to get a payrise? which other club does he think will pay a big fee and then the same wages as citeh - or is he hoping that citeh will pay nearly all his wages whilst he pisses off back to Boca or whoever? does the player actually understand any of what's going on, is are agents running everything? what's clear though is that it's an extremely grubby business.


(2) Ashley Young


i was skim-reading this weekend's NOTW when i noticed a passing reference to the fact that he earns £130k a week at scum. this for a player not guaranteed a first team spot at scum and who at 26 [mid to late career for a winger] has 15 England caps, most of them as sub. capable player and all that but :shock:

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jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: the premiershit

Postby jackos » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:02 pm

the flying pig wrote:a couple of recent stories have really disturbed me. i know it's been said many times before but are we genuinely better off out of it? i just don't get it.


Us miserable old cunts are, but for the kids sake's n probably for the future of our club I reckon we need to be back up there. Sky are going to tire eventually, as will the thieves n dictators who currently find the PL so exciting. Bates is a lot of things, but I would rather we where owned by a bloke like him than turned into the next Man City or Chelsea, so I hope we can steer clear of that crowd when we do go up, alt Bates fuck off.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: the premiershit

Postby the flying pig » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:05 pm

still, at least owen hargreaves is fit again

http://www.youtube.com/user/owenhargreavescb#p/a/u/0/PvDbMTsrGJA

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Man Called Sun
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:26 am
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Re: the premiershit

Postby Man Called Sun » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:09 pm

Yeah, I have got irrationally and disproportionately wound up with Tevez over this one, the man is just an absolute cunt. Couldn't even be arsed with the cup celebrations, running off to the press and slagging off the club in one breath and then brown nosing the fans in the next. When the difficult questions start rolling in he hides behind his agent. Out to get absolutely everything his own way, no class at all.

Remember how he wound everyone up at scum before he left an all? I rememeber seeing one home game on MOTD when he got subbed off and the crowd all booed! Booing the decision of a manager who's won them pretty much everything, constantly. I was astonished at that.
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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the flying pig
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 am

Re: the premiershit

Postby the flying pig » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:11 pm

Man Called Sun wrote:Yeah, I have got irrationally and disproportionately wound up with Tevez over this one, the man is just an absolute cunt. Couldn't even be arsed with the cup celebrations, running off to the press and slagging off the club in one breath and then brown nosing the fans in the next. When the difficult questions start rolling in he hides behind his agent. Out to get absolutely everything his own way, no class at all.

Remember how he wound everyone up at scum before he left an all? I rememeber seeing one home game on MOTD when he got subbed off and the crowd all booed! Booing the decision of a manager who's won them pretty much everything, constantly. I was astonished at that.


aye.

the cunt was on about retiring within weeks of joining citeh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/8359954.stm

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Man Called Sun
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:26 am
Location: The dancefloor

Re: the premiershit

Postby Man Called Sun » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:18 pm

jackos wrote:
the flying pig wrote:a couple of recent stories have really disturbed me. i know it's been said many times before but are we genuinely better off out of it? i just don't get it.


Us miserable old cunts are, but for the kids sake's n probably for the future of our club I reckon we need to be back up there. Sky are going to tire eventually, as will the thieves n dictators who currently find the PL so exciting. Bates is a lot of things, but I would rather we where owned by a bloke like him than turned into the next Man City or Chelsea, so I hope we can steer clear of that crowd when we do go up, alt Bates fuck off.

I know what you mean, and I agree with you that I would never ever want the club to become an international propaganda machine like Man City and all that, but we should never ever let that danger detract from what a horrible, corrupt, bearded shyster bastard Bates is. And it doesn't alter the fact that we need him out, quickly.
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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BobbyD
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 7:09 am
Location: Stuck in the early 90's

Re: the premiershit

Postby BobbyD » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Man Called Sun wrote:
jackos wrote:
the flying pig wrote:a couple of recent stories have really disturbed me. i know it's been said many times before but are we genuinely better off out of it? i just don't get it.


Us miserable old cunts are, but for the kids sake's n probably for the future of our club I reckon we need to be back up there. Sky are going to tire eventually, as will the thieves n dictators who currently find the PL so exciting. Bates is a lot of things, but I would rather we where owned by a bloke like him than turned into the next Man City or Chelsea, so I hope we can steer clear of that crowd when we do go up, alt Bates fuck off.

I know what you mean, and I agree with you that I would never ever want the club to become an international propaganda machine like Man City and all that, but we should never ever let that danger detract from what a horrible, corrupt, bearded shyster bastard Bates is. And it doesn't alter the fact that we need him out, quickly.


I've just read this entire thread and then got to the final post (as in this one), and just rubbed my chin and scratched my nose and thought, what the fuck ? Hang on ? The poster does have a point (re: Bates), one which I agree with. But something is kind of boiling inside me, something that is trying to break through and say that under our current regime, is it that bad ?

I for one would not like LUFC to be swept up by a tosspot from the far ends of the east, as we would not be able to, as fans, stand for what we believe in. What is the alternative to what we currently have ?

How many clubs that are in the Championship or in the drop zone of the Premiership are of the potential caliber that we are ?

Bates is a cuntoe of the highest order, but I am beginning to think that at this current time he may not be as bad as our short sightedness may seem. Maybe he is the keystone of the blockade that is preventing us from progression upwards to the circus but maybe he is waiting like a snake to take us when the iron is hot......?

Fuck knows, but I wish some one would hack his fucking phone and find out !

:mrgreen:

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Man Called Sun
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Re: the premiershit

Postby Man Called Sun » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:19 pm

BobbyD wrote:I for one would not like LUFC to be swept up by a tosspot from the far ends of the east, as we would not be able to, as fans, stand for what we believe in. What is the alternative to what we currently have ?

How many clubs that are in the Championship or in the drop zone of the Premiership are of the potential caliber that we are ?

Bates is a cuntoe of the highest order, but I am beginning to think that at this current time he may not be as bad as our short sightedness may seem. Maybe he is the keystone of the blockade that is preventing us from progression upwards to the circus but maybe he is waiting like a snake to take us when the iron is hot......?

Fuck knows, but I wish some one would hack his fucking phone and find out !

:mrgreen:

Bates doesn not have some master plan to suddenly spring us into the Premiership on the cheap. He's bleeding the club of cash to line his own pockets. He doesn't give a fuck. He never will. He's got us relegated once and he will do again.

As for alternatives, we shouldn't be thinking about that, we should just be getting the bastard out.
Float like a butterfly and sting like one.

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Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
Location: Arse end of nowhere

Re: the premiershit

Postby Blackwhite » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:19 pm

BobbyD wrote:maybe he is waiting like a snake to take us when the iron is hot......?


I'm sure you lost me before this, but this was where I noticed.
You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.

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BobbyD
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 7:09 am
Location: Stuck in the early 90's

Re: the premiershit

Postby BobbyD » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:43 pm

Blackwhite wrote:
BobbyD wrote:maybe he is waiting like a snake to take us when the iron is hot......?


I'm sure you lost me before this, but this was where I noticed.


Well obviously the iron is not hot right now.....just like your fasheesus response... :bounce:

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thechubbyone
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:18 am

Re: the premiershit

Postby thechubbyone » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:49 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:
BobbyD wrote:maybe he is waiting like a snake to take us when the iron is hot......?


I'm sure you lost me before this, but this was where I noticed.


Well obviously the iron is not hot right now.....just like your fasheesus response... :bounce:

Image

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moscowhite
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:47 pm

Re: the premiershit

Postby moscowhite » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:53 pm

BobbyD wrote:I've just read this entire thread...


Six posts? No wondered you cocked those five hundred emails up.
'If you give Leeds the ball, they will make you dance.' - Johan Cruyff

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Disco Dan
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the premiershit

Postby Disco Dan » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:54 pm

Ignore for a second Ken Bates' personality and the fact that he's English, then consider the following.

We're owned by a moderately wealthy near-80-year-old man who lives in Monaco. The accounts since 2007 show zero external investment - something desperately needed to lift the burden of the rent for ER & TA.

What would be so different about someone based in the far east or USA coming running us, but actually putting some cash in, even if it was only enough to get the stadium and training ground back?

It's almost like we're celebrating Bates' skinflint approach because he happens to have been in football for a long time.

Given the choice between new foreign money and no old money, I know which I'd prefer.

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gazurtoids
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:10 am

Re: the premiershit

Postby gazurtoids » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:10 pm

Really? I'd be quite happy with no external investment at all as long as the club's income from ticket sales, TV, merchandising, etc was being spent on building a good football team. In my opinion, the problem with Bates is that he takes the club's income and spends it on his own vanity projects, not that he doesn't put any cash in himself. In that respect, I'm certainly against any rich owner, foreign or otherwise, who wants to dilute the club's identity by pumping unearned cash into it, however successful that might make us.

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moscowhite
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:47 pm

Re: the premiershit

Postby moscowhite » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:28 pm

gazurtoids wrote:Really? I'd be quite happy with no external investment at all as long as the club's income from ticket sales, TV, merchandising, etc was being spent on building a good football team. In my opinion, the problem with Bates is that he takes the club's income and spends it on his own vanity projects, not that he doesn't put any cash in himself. In that respect, I'm certainly against any rich owner, foreign or otherwise, who wants to dilute the club's identity by pumping unearned cash into it, however successful that might make us.


It depends how much pumping we're talking, doesn't it? City and Chelsea are freaks, but anyone who buys a business expects to invest/pump some cash into it. The line is always trotted out after any football club takeover: We'll pay off the debts, and make £Xm available to the manager for transfers.

The most recent instance at Leeds was after the Caspian takeover in 1997. I can't remember exactly how Wilkinson came by the cash for Martyn, Bowyer and Sharpe in '96 because that was a transition summer, but the next summer Caspian gave Graham the money to buy Hasselbaink (£2m), Haaland (either £1.6m or £2.6m, can't remember), Ribeiro (the best £500k LUFC ever spent), Hopkin (£3.5m) and fucking Robertson (£TooMuch), having already spent £1m on Molenaar and loose change on Halle, and, um, Lilley and Laurent. It was a medium-scale spree, paid for by a combination of club funds and investment from the newish London-media owners, and it neither bankrupted the club or sold our soul out; but it definitely transformed the team from turgid never-scorers to pretty damn good UEFA Cup qualifiers.

Whenever this discussion comes up, it always seems to become very binary very quickly, as if our only options are Bates (who is, to my mind, a foreign owner anyway) spending nothing or a Russian/Middle Eastern billionaire spending everything. There are other possibilities.
'If you give Leeds the ball, they will make you dance.' - Johan Cruyff

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gazurtoids
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:10 am

Re: the premiershit

Postby gazurtoids » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:54 pm

No, I personally think that any amount of pumping (can we pick a different word?) is essentially wrong and should be considered the equivalent of doping. Unfortunately, it appears to be a necessity because of the extremely uneven income distribution caused by the PL and CL. How that can be fixed is an open question.

However, if it comes down to principles, then I don't think that asking for an independent third party to benevolently finance a football team to any degree is at all defensible. If we're serious about the club being ours then we should be prepared to fund it (via whatever model). If we're willing to let someone else spend their money on buying players (whether it's Caspian or whoever), then I can't see that we can justifiably expect our opinions on what that person should and shouldn't do in terms of investment to hold any weight.

This debate quickly becomes binary because it is essentially binary: the club is either ours or theirs.

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moscowhite
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:47 pm

Re: the premiershit

Postby moscowhite » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:17 pm

Ah, a pumping puritan. Ideologically, I'm down with that, but it's pretty much never been the case in football, or any post-19th Century sport; see This Sporting Life for a wealthy club director buying and selling boys for his team. And it's hardly ever benevolence: the payback either comes from the profit that comes from success on the pitch (spend £2m on Hasselbaink, qualify for Europe, sell him for £12m, take your £2m plus dividend back; Caspian weren't a charity), or from the extra status of being The Man Who Made United - you've made your millions in paint (hi, Leslie Silver!), so why not become the nice guy who buys the good footballers for the whole town to enjoy?

I think the only team that really comes close to your model is Doncaster, and even they made an exception when the directors clubbed together to buy Billy Sharp.
'If you give Leeds the ball, they will make you dance.' - Johan Cruyff

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Disco Dan
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the premiershit

Postby Disco Dan » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:51 pm

gazurtoids wrote:Really? I'd be quite happy with no external investment at all as long as the club's income from ticket sales, TV, merchandising, etc was being spent on building a good football team. In my opinion, the problem with Bates is that he takes the club's income and spends it on his own vanity projects, not that he doesn't put any cash in himself. In that respect, I'm certainly against any rich owner, foreign or otherwise, who wants to dilute the club's identity by pumping unearned cash into it, however successful that might make us.


I don't necessarily want endless millions chucked at it because it would be soulless. But the fact remains that some sort of investment or speculation needs to occur, whether it's players or on TA/ER.

All we're getting at the minute is an old man maximising his returns rather than building a team. I'd take an injection of cash over tedious stagnation any day. With the current approach we're plateauing. One way or another it's gonna take cash to move us forward. And I want us to move forward.

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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: UK

Re: the premiershit

Postby Tommy » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:23 am

On the one hand, Tevez is a despicable bugger but I get the feeling that like many South American footballers, he is probably responsible for the financial burden of his entire family (which will be huge). That's probably a contributing factor as to why he is near enough entirely motivated by money. He probably realises he's not exactly going to walk into a modelling career when he retires and wants to maintain his lifestyle when he's done playing. Additionally, he does also have a couple of charitable foundations which do good work in his native Argentina. Neither of those things are necessarily an excuse but they're a contributing factor.

With regards to his move to Man City, I'd argue that was a justifiable on the grounds that Fergie didn't seem to want him (which I'd say it was daft, he's patently a world class player, even if he is a cock of a man) and thus, I can't blame him for moving on to their nearest rivals just to make a point. Plus, City were splashing the cash and since he was already settled in Manchester, it wasn't a huge logistical burden. Since then he's played really well, won them a trophy and now, he's probably sick of living in sodding Manchester, as I'm sure most of us would be - in particular if we were from somewhere with a better climate.

I thought his bellyaching was fairly pathetic too but never once did I see him phone a game in. On the day that happens, he's an utter bastard. Until then, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt on certain issues.

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moscowhite
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:47 pm

Re: the premiershit

Postby moscowhite » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:52 am

tommydski wrote:On the one hand, Tevez is a despicable bugger but I get the feeling that like many South American footballers, he is probably responsible for the financial burden of his entire family (which will be huge). That's probably a contributing factor as to why he is near enough entirely motivated by money. He probably realises he's not exactly going to walk into a modelling career when he retires and wants to maintain his lifestyle when he's done playing. Additionally, he does also have a couple of charitable foundations which do good work in his native Argentina. Neither of those things are necessarily an excuse but they're a contributing factor.


If his aim is to maximise financial return on his short but lucrative career for the sake of his family, how does threatening to retire aged 26 fit in to it? He's been on about quitting football for the last three seasons. Also, when given time off by Manchester City last season to go and visit his children in Argentina, he fucked off to Tenerife with a dolly bird and didn't go near his family. I'm not crying for him.
'If you give Leeds the ball, they will make you dance.' - Johan Cruyff


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