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Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:28 pm
by Blackwhite
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm sure we've been here before, but I fucking loathe Heatherwick. Toytown bullshit.

I guess what interests me in design is how you react to something the hundredth time you see it. Heatherwick's all about the one time immediate impact. It's like meeting a bloke who tells you the same joke, everyday, forever.

Hmm. To venture analogy, the M.Night Shyamalan of architecture?

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:40 pm
by eric olthwaite
Blackwhite wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm sure we've been here before, but I fucking loathe Heatherwick. Toytown bullshit.

I guess what interests me in design is how you react to something the hundredth time you see it. Heatherwick's all about the one time immediate impact. It's like meeting a bloke who tells you the same joke, everyday, forever.

Hmm. To venture analogy, the M.Night Shyamalan of architecture?


Maybe. I'm trying to think of someone even more trite than that?

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:45 pm
by Blackwhite
eric olthwaite wrote:
Blackwhite wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm sure we've been here before, but I fucking loathe Heatherwick. Toytown bullshit.

I guess what interests me in design is how you react to something the hundredth time you see it. Heatherwick's all about the one time immediate impact. It's like meeting a bloke who tells you the same joke, everyday, forever.

Hmm. To venture analogy, the M.Night Shyamalan of architecture?


Maybe. I'm trying to think of someone even more trite than that?

Oof. Good luck.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:48 pm
by eric olthwaite
Tycipa wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm sure we've been here before, but I fucking loathe Heatherwick. Toytown bullshit.

I guess what interests me in design is how you react to something the hundredth time you see it. Heatherwick's all about the one time immediate impact. It's like meeting a bloke who tells you the same joke, everyday, forever.

I'm sure he has a high opinion of your body of work. :mrgreen:


I'll cope.

Although in fairness, I've had work shortlisted for the Stirling Prize - he hasn't. 8)

But it's architecture for the Instagram generation, no? All mouth and no trousers. In fairness, the only thing of his I liked was the Olympic cauldron, and that was mainly because it only lasted a month.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:02 pm
by Mustafaster
Must admit, I was kind of impressed when I first saw it. How could you not be?...then I thought, same as you can be impressed with hypervelocity shredding guitarists, but then you think...
So what?

He's the Mark King of architecture.
Flash cunt with nothing to say.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:00 am
by Devi
On the contrary (at least, according to the horses mouth). Went to a talk he gave about his design principles, and two phrases stuck out:

"Design moments, not things" (e.g. The Olympic flame)
"What's the idea they won't forget?" (e.g. The new Routemaster and its spiral window)

I heart Heatherwick.

It's Hemingway that I think is a talentless, plagiarising, duplicitous cretin.

(Edit to clarify: Hemingway redesigned Dreamland in2015. It went into administration in 2016. I redesigned it, and it opened a fortnight ago. Last week, this gets posted on their FB. Warnocks.)

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:46 am
by Blackwhite
What a cunt, Devi!

Caro Russell is with you, right, given her badly-worded legal threats? Put the dogs on the fucker. Outrageous. Stuff like this needs punishing.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:12 am
by eric olthwaite
I'm curious Devi, to be honest, particularly in view of events this morning. What was the scope of your redesign and what are your qualifications for providing it?

Stuff like emergency evacuation strategies, escape loads, disability access etc. Did you do all that? Who was the Principal Designer for CDM?

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:01 pm
by Wakefield White
eric olthwaite wrote:I'm curious Devi, to be honest, particularly in view of events this morning. What was the scope of your redesign and what are your qualifications for providing it?

Stuff like emergency evacuation strategies, escape loads, disability access etc. Did you do all that? Who was the Principal Designer for CDM?


Do you know if the building regs or British standards take a view on the susceptibility to fire of external cladding?

It looks like it may have been a factor in the rapid spread this morning. I worked on a job in Manchester where the rainscreen cladding' insulation was set alight by a spark from a grinder and rapidly spread up the building.

Other random thoughts;
Stay put policy... in a building with no sprinklers?
Single escape stair... surely pressurised? But it seems people weren't able to escape?
I'd like to see a risk assessment that argues a 20-odd story building with one fire escape route didn't need retro fitting of sprinklers!
Fire compartmentalisation failed big time, if building was recently refurbed, specifier or installer is going to get fucked!

Any thoughts Eric?

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:01 pm
by Devi
Carey's were the site PC, and worked under CDM, doing all the civil stuff. Landscaping (and PD) was / is Aecom. My remit was (is) to work with both to redesign the park as an 'experiential open space for public use' (notably festivals), increasing dwell time and commercial viability, while others (DRaw Studio, London) did all the 'indoor' stuff, eg a pub, venue and rooftop bar. Basically, I did all the 'pretty' stuff here, and some other bits Ive yet to get a good photo of!
The park was redesigned (and reopened in a blaze of PR glory) in 2015 by Mr Hemingway (and his team). It went into administration (again) in mid '16, after which I was appointed to 're-imagine a Dreamland story', through creative design and build.
Ive been designing and building event sites for (arguably) my whole 29 year career - but we dont need to work under CDM per se, as we/it was under 500 man days (at least, arguably so, given the way the job got structured - as with most if not all festival builds.) That said, every structure built, foundation poured, wind load assessed, screw screwed and plug plugged has been calculated appropriately and signed off as if CDM had applied so Im covered.

And yes, BW. Caro is a) 'with me' (aka Mrs Devi) b) not good at legalese and c) the creative talent that delivered the new main entrance so richly featured on the HemDes pages.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:15 pm
by eric olthwaite
Devi wrote:Carey's were the site PC, and worked under CDM, doing all the civil stuff. Landscaping (and PD) was / is Aecom. My remit was (is) to work with both to redesign the park as an 'experiential open space for public use' (notably festivals), increasing dwell time and commercial viability, while others (DRaw Studio, London) did all the 'indoor' stuff, eg a pub, venue and rooftop bar. Basically, I did all the 'pretty' stuff here, and some other bits Ive yet to get a good photo of!
The park was redesigned (and reopened in a blaze of PR glory) in 2015 by Mr Hemingway (and his team). It went into administration (again) in mid '16, after which I was appointed to 're-imagine a Dreamland story', through creative design and build.
Ive been designing and building event sites for (arguably) my whole 29 year career - but we dont need to work under CDM per se, as we/it was under 500 man days (at least, arguably so, given the way the job got structured - as with most if not all festival builds.) That said, every structure built, foundation poured, wind load assessed, screw screwed and plug plugged has been calculated appropriately and signed off as if CDM had applied so Im covered.

And yes, BW. Caro is a) 'with me' (aka Mrs Devi) b) not good at legalese and c) the creative talent that delivered the new main entrance so richly featured on the HemDes pages.


Fair enough - although I'd have thought that the 30 working days bit would apply for CDM?

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:32 pm
by eric olthwaite
Wakefield White wrote:Do you know if the building regs or British standards take a view on the susceptibility to fire of external cladding?

It looks like it may have been a factor in the rapid spread this morning. I worked on a job in Manchester where the rainscreen cladding' insulation was set alight by a spark from a grinder and rapidly spread up the building.

Other random thoughts;
Stay put policy... in a building with no sprinklers?
Single escape stair... surely pressurised? But it seems people weren't able to escape?
I'd like to see a risk assessment that argues a 20-odd story building with one fire escape route didn't need retro fitting of sprinklers!
Fire compartmentalisation failed big time, if building was recently refurbed, specifier or installer is going to get fucked!

Any thoughts Eric?


Yeah. I dunno. Very hard to define problems at this stage. I do know that the way vented cavities in rainscreen are covered with regard to refurb under Part B is all a bit woolly. For example. I'm sure it would be an absolute twat to retrofit stair pressurisation or sprinklers in a building like this. And by 'twat' I suppose I mean 'so expensive that it wouldn't have been considered'.

One thing that really fucking scared me was that one of the tenants interviewed this morning seemed to suggest that the only alarm sounder was in the common parts, not in his flat. If the building was refurbished, I'm utterly lost as to how you can arrive at a situation with a 24 storey single staircase residential building without linked sounders in every room, let alone every flat.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:03 pm
by Devi
eric olthwaite wrote:Fair enough - although I'd have thought that the 30 working days bit would apply for CDM?


Yes and no. None of my contractors worked more than 30 days, and the site was hived off from the 'main' site as required, so each of their 'sub-sites' were outside of the wider CDM work. And as a consultant, the fact I was there longer than 30 didn't - as I understand CDM - matter.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:52 pm
by Blackwhite
Release the hounds, Devi mate. Skip with their colons.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:40 am
by OWETB
Devi, it comes under CDM. I think you are a little confused with the regs. The man hours or days worked you mentioned trigger the project notification to the HSE for the requirements of the regs.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:09 pm
by eric olthwaite
Oh, here we fucking go then.

Over the years we've completed a ton of public projects on design and build contracts - though never any residential refurbishment

Now the contractors are getting a ton of emails from local authorities, panicking, asking for confirmation that everything is fireproof and compliant with regs. So obviously those contractors are deflecting all blame and asking us what was built. But the whole point of design and build contracts is that we can put anything on drawings but have no control whatsoever over what the contractor actually provides on site. Bunfight ensues.

I suspect I'm going to be spending a lot of time dealing with this shit over the coming months.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:24 pm
by Man Called Sun
eric olthwaite wrote:Oh, here we fucking go then.

Over the years we've completed a ton of public projects on design and build contracts - though never any residential refurbishment

Now the contractors are getting a ton of emails from local authorities, panicking, asking for confirmation that everything is fireproof and compliant with regs. So obviously those contractors are deflecting all blame and asking us what was built. But the whole point of design and build contracts is that we can put anything on drawings but have no control whatsoever over what the contractor actually provides on site. Bunfight ensues.

I suspect I'm going to be spending a lot of time dealing with this shit over the coming months.

Looks like it.
This is extraordinary. :shock:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:39 pm
by Blackwhite
Man Called Sun wrote:
eric olthwaite wrote:Oh, here we fucking go then.

Over the years we've completed a ton of public projects on design and build contracts - though never any residential refurbishment

Now the contractors are getting a ton of emails from local authorities, panicking, asking for confirmation that everything is fireproof and compliant with regs. So obviously those contractors are deflecting all blame and asking us what was built. But the whole point of design and build contracts is that we can put anything on drawings but have no control whatsoever over what the contractor actually provides on site. Bunfight ensues.

I suspect I'm going to be spending a lot of time dealing with this shit over the coming months.

Looks like it.
This is extraordinary. :shock:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other


In other news, King Herod has ordered an immediate Inquiry into nursery care standards across Judea.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:02 pm
by eric olthwaite
Man Called Sun wrote:This is extraordinary. :shock:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other


It isn't good, but a couple of notes of caution:

- I get the impression that labs have a lot of samples and are testing those most likely to fail first, since they're trying to identify worst risks.

- I'm not sure what the test methodology is, but I suspect that this may be a different / more stringent test than that type to which these materials may originally have been tested. So perhaps these results not that surprising.

Re: O/T idle thoughts on Leeds architecture

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:04 pm
by JimbobMaloney