FA Cup Third Round Draw

Discussion on LUFC and absolutely anything... welcome to the Dark Side
User avatar
Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Phil LUFC »

dirty leeds wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote: Sod opinion in situations like that and ours on Sunday. The question shouldn't be what the officials think was likely to happen, they should be looking at whether it's possible it influenced things. If it's possible then it has to be given. It's possible (highly likely in fact) that Meslier dives differently if Bowen isn't there and it's certainly possible Cavani can do enough to prevent a completely free header if not blocked by an offside player (I don't think he can get to the ball first but he can make it a much more difficult header). I think if that lad had been onside and Cavani plows into him then nothing doing as he didn't make a significant effort to block the run, he was already there before the free kick. But there's no doubt it's a training ground move, he's positioned exactly where he needs to be to give his team mate an advantage.

Fuck knows what the officials reviewed to come up with the decision to disallow as I didn't watch that match and 3 minutes plus is way too long for a decision but I think it's the right decision.

As for the use in some games not others, I disagree with Shearer on that too, unless it could technically be done at every ground with their current infrastructure (not Stockley Park's) - it's not really any different to goal line technology. If it's there, use it. One of the arguments against tech was the cost and not being possible at grass roots, who pays for it to be there? In many games it probably costs more than the profits from gate receipts.
So... 'sod opinion' and then 'I think' three times in the following comments. Hmm. :mrgreen:

I agree with you that they probably ended up in the right place with the Man U decision process - provided, in the ref's opinion, Cavani would have challenged for the ball/affected play, then the ref is entitled to disallow the goal.
But it is about the ref's opinion on that.
I don't have to agree with that opinion, but if that's how it all worked and that's what he thought, then there's nowhere else to go.

In our case, what's galling is that Bowen clearly DID interfere with play [as regards Meslier], and it seems they didn't even ask the ref to decide on that - they just told him it wasn't offside. If the ref had looked at that and had been asked if Bowen interfered, there's no way he would have said no, surely?

I was all for VAR as an idea. Think I probably said it needs real-match trialling and adjusting if there are problems, too.
But a couple of season in and we're now getting to the point where it's discussed every bleeding week, and there's no real sign that any adjustments have made it a streamlined and well-respected process.
Are we nearing the time when we decide to scrap it [for all but goal line decisions] and just go back to refs' and linos' judgement/mistakes?

Opinions?
:mrgreen: Not my opinions, obviously.

It's a complicated game with an impossible number of different situations to govern but there's too much grey in the rules. Certain things are more prescribed, like offside and obstruction, with enough definition for the goalposts to be set set tighter for the officials.

If at any point there saying "well, it's Cavani, he's a bit shit at defending" or "It's Meslier, he's young, inexperienced and prone to an error" as part of their assessment then the whole thing is fucked. See also Xhaka seemingly getting away with 3 bookable offences per match.

For scum it doesn't matter if he'd have got there, he was the marker of the guy who headed it and he was impeded.

For us it doesn't matter what impact Bowen ultimately had, he was offside and made a deliberate move towards playing the ball - to the point he would have played it has someone else not been fractionally quicker. That's enough to be considered interfering no matter what you think the ultimate outcome might have been.

As for VAR, I don't think you can go back, the genie is out of the bottle. From here its only a case of doing it better - as has been proven possible at the Euros. Certain laws need to have a VAR subclause written into them and others need a bigger tweak to be compatible with both technology and where it's not available. They've tied themselves in knots over offside and the limits of what they'll review.

The boundaries are mostly sensible but if they deem something worth reviewing as a potential penalty or red card that should have the power to then say it was outside the box but you missed the foul or it should have at least been yellow and you gave nothing, go look and decide. The VAR saying not red or outside the box is still an injustice if nothing was given on field. If that makes any sense.

I'd also like them to have a view on 2nd yellows (or retrospectively looking at the first in the case a 2nd is brandished) but that's really tricky ground they're probably right to stay away from.
User avatar
Bobbycollins
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:52 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Bobbycollins »

It's the lack of constistency with ref and VAR decisions that annoys me. You'd think it would be easy to gather the refs together, show them some examples and agree on a consistent approach. Last season was all about marginal offside decisions, which seem to have been largely removed, however when VAR check every goal, it appears to then be a question of opinions rather than correcting clear and obvious errors. As was posted a while back, refs appear to flourish yellow cards far more towards the end of the game but with no consistency, e.g Drameh carded on Sunday despite making no contact and Llorente carded against Burnley for having his shirt tugged. Vlasic was awarded a free kick on the edge of the penalty area when he blatently dived but VAR apparently can't correct that decision, which could have resulted in a goal. Bamford was banned (correctly) for successful deception of the official against Villa but Vlasic was rewarded for his decption. The interpretation of challenges that endanger an opponent appears particularly inconsistent - the Antonio arm into the face of Meslier in the home game produced gasps from the crowd when the large screen showed Meslier's face snapped back by the impact but that was just a yellow card - the same punishment as for tugging a shirt on half way. Over the top tackles by Xhaka or the late challege on Rapha by Saiss of Wolves go totally unpunished. I would rather have VAR than not, as the ref has a difficult time keeping up with play whilst having eyes in the back of his head but refs and VAR need to apply the laws in a consistent and easily explained manner.
User avatar
dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by dirty leeds »

Bobbycollins wrote:It's the lack of constistency with ref and VAR decisions that annoys me. You'd think it would be easy to gather the refs together, show them some examples and agree on a consistent approach. Last season was all about marginal offside decisions, which seem to have been largely removed, however when VAR check every goal, it appears to then be a question of opinions rather than correcting clear and obvious errors. As was posted a while back, refs appear to flourish yellow cards far more towards the end of the game but with no consistency, e.g Drameh carded on Sunday despite making no contact and Llorente carded against Burnley for having his shirt tugged. Vlasic was awarded a free kick on the edge of the penalty area when he blatently dived but VAR apparently can't correct that decision, which could have resulted in a goal. Bamford was banned (correctly) for successful deception of the official against Villa but Vlasic was rewarded for his decption. The interpretation of challenges that endanger an opponent appears particularly inconsistent - the Antonio arm into the face of Meslier in the home game produced gasps from the crowd when the large screen showed Meslier's face snapped back by the impact but that was just a yellow card - the same punishment as for tugging a shirt on half way. Over the top tackles by Xhaka or the late challege on Rapha by Saiss of Wolves go totally unpunished. I would rather have VAR than not, as the ref has a difficult time keeping up with play whilst having eyes in the back of his head but refs and VAR need to apply the laws in a consistent and easily explained manner.
Yep, and Burnley scored from the free kick they got when our man was fouled.
Also drives me mad that an offside is overlooked if the play results in, say, a corner but not a goal - and then they score from the corner. That is just bollocks. How can the same bit of play be judged both fine and not fine, depending on the outcome?
"Football is not so important that we can't have tolerance of incorrect evaluations."
User avatar
Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Phil LUFC »

I do think offside with eventually become a different technology rather than VAR, then it'll be factual in every case (excluding the subjectivity of interfering I guess). But you're right, currently it's a mess depending on what it leads to. If it leads to any attacking advantage it should be addressed. Of course, it's still imperfect, West Ham were flagged offside twice in decent areas, right under the nose of the lino, after taking the lead. It both cases the replay looked very tight and suggested someone in the middle was playing them on.
User avatar
Quiffy
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:56 pm

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Quiffy »

dirty leeds wrote: Yep, and Burnley scored from the free kick they got when our man was fouled.
Also drives me mad that an offside is overlooked if the play results in, say, a corner but not a goal - and then they score from the corner. That is just bollocks. How can the same bit of play be judged both fine and not fine, depending on the outcome?
the alternative is stopping the game far too often.

no two situations are exactly the same, there are so many variables involved in each situation so unless you have a massively complex rulebook there are always going to be differing opinions. after all what exactly is 'intent', when does a player start to interfere with play? people compare it to cricket and tennis where technology provides more satisfactory solutions but both sports have far fewer variables involved - in football you can be talking about three players going for the same ball, exactly when did it touch, or fail to touch one of those players, where did it touch them, was the second player 'active', etc

we're currently getting marginal decisions being argued because we have the technology to see varying angles with slow-mo, the technology has zoomed into the detail that previously was just conjecture for a spectator. that's far better than when we'd get clearly bad decisions because we're depending on the person in the middle to see every on the ball and off the ball incident from multiple views. imagine the jeff astle incident nowadays in 73? it wouldn't even be a problem to sort that one out.

it's never going to be perfect, i don't think it can be, the game is too complex, but i'd say it's a big improvement.
increasing doubt, decreasing hope, even my imaginary friend went and changed his mind.
User avatar
dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by dirty leeds »

Quiffy wrote:
dirty leeds wrote: Yep, and Burnley scored from the free kick they got when our man was fouled.
Also drives me mad that an offside is overlooked if the play results in, say, a corner but not a goal - and then they score from the corner. That is just bollocks. How can the same bit of play be judged both fine and not fine, depending on the outcome?
the alternative is stopping the game far too often.

no two situations are exactly the same, there are so many variables involved in each situation so unless you have a massively complex rulebook there are always going to be differing opinions. after all what exactly is 'intent', when does a player start to interfere with play? people compare it to cricket and tennis where technology provides more satisfactory solutions but both sports have far fewer variables involved - in football you can be talking about three players going for the same ball, exactly when did it touch, or fail to touch one of those players, where did it touch them, was the second player 'active', etc

we're currently getting marginal decisions being argued because we have the technology to see varying angles with slow-mo, the technology has zoomed into the detail that previously was just conjecture for a spectator. that's far better than when we'd get clearly bad decisions because we're depending on the person in the middle to see every on the ball and off the ball incident from multiple views. imagine the jeff astle incident nowadays in 73? it wouldn't even be a problem to sort that one out.

it's never going to be perfect, i don't think it can be, the game is too complex, but i'd say it's a big improvement.
Yes, yes, yes and definitely [as things stand] no. Imo.
"Football is not so important that we can't have tolerance of incorrect evaluations."
User avatar
eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by eric olthwaite »

dirty leeds wrote:
Quiffy wrote:it's never going to be perfect, i don't think it can be, the game is too complex, but i'd say it's a big improvement.
Yes, yes, yes and definitely [as things stand] no. Imo.
It's a stupid analogy but I can't think of a better one for the time being: you know how people drive the wrong way up one way streets now, because 'the sat nav told them'? It's all part of that wider thing about the way technology effectively de-skills people*. You've got refs and linos looking at the tech and a) not focussing on the right call in the first place because they know the tech's there and b) trying to work out what the tech is telling them rather than applying their own rationale.

Similarly, fans imagine that the presence of the tech will offer some form of objectivity when it doesn't. Long term, in order for the tech to offer objective functional accuracy you would have to redefine the rules of the game in infinite detail ('if a player slides in with their leading leg straighter than 30 deg or more and with one foot more than 30 deg from the ground plane, then it's . . . ')

For the time being and based on what I've seen so far, I'd think I'd rather go back to refs just reffing, sometimes badly.

* I could go off on a long diatribe here about the way that BIM (3D CAD with bells on) is massively de-skilling junior architects in terms of actually understanding construction, but I'll leave it
Member of a clique
Wakefield White
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: t'other side o't hills

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Wakefield White »

Magic of the cup? Hardly.

Still, it’s nice to see them go out. Bit of ex white interest with Howson, Bamba and Pelts too!
User avatar
jackos
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am
Location: Stockholm

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by jackos »

Traditional Socialist Bastard
Global Anti-Growth Coalition
User avatar
metalsmurf
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:08 am
Location: Littleborough, Gtr Scumland

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by metalsmurf »

I’m soooo glad this isn’t us today.
Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish.
rss1969
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by rss1969 »

I think that Declan Rice is my favourite non Leeds player

Quality on the pitch and a proper nice bloke off it. First words today from him were how Kiddi deserved to win and were brilliant...........thing is he means it, it is not lip service.

He and Phillips together in the same midfield would be brilliant, on & off the pitch.
User avatar
Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Scunthorpe

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Phil LUFC »

Really don't understand why Djed Spence is on loan at Forest. A regular for Boro all last season and after breaking through the season before, played their first 3 games this season, now highly likely to help Forest reach the playoffs at Boro's expense.
User avatar
dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by dirty leeds »

Phil LUFC wrote:Really don't understand why Djed Spence is on loan at Forest. A regular for Boro all last season and after breaking through the season before, played their first 3 games this season, now highly likely to help Forest reach the playoffs at Boro's expense.
Yeah, and he should be Luke Ayling's medium term replacement. He's fucking dynamite, that lad.
"Football is not so important that we can't have tolerance of incorrect evaluations."
User avatar
dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: London

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by dirty leeds »

rss1969 wrote:I think that Declan Rice is my favourite non Leeds player

Quality on the pitch and a proper nice bloke off it. First words today from him were how Kiddi deserved to win and were brilliant...........thing is he means it, it is not lip service.

He and Phillips together in the same midfield would be brilliant, on & off the pitch.
Yep.
"Football is not so important that we can't have tolerance of incorrect evaluations."
User avatar
Blackwhite
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am
Location: Arse end of nowhere
Contact:

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Blackwhite »

Was gonna put this in stupid Cunts but CBA

You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later.
Billy Casper
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:32 pm

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Billy Casper »

FAC 1st Round. ITV4 are set up to show Bracknell Town v Ipswich Town tonight, as long as there aren’t warthogs on the pitch.

Bracknell play at Sandhurst just across the way from me.

The Bracknell following are knuckledraggers, I’m hoping it passes by peacefully.
Bueno!
User avatar
eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by eric olthwaite »

Cardiff away? Get fucked
Member of a clique
User avatar
Terre Harte II
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:52 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere, USA

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Terre Harte II »

Barf. What a shit draw.

Also, how do they determine the number you're assigned?
"The supporters, the only thing to them is that they love their club.
The only thing the receive in exchange is emotions.
For this reason, the supporter is the best thing in football." - Marcelo Bielsa
User avatar
eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
Location: Over there, behind that bush

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by eric olthwaite »

Terre Harte II wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:22 pm
Barf. What a shit draw.

Also, how do they determine the number you're assigned?
Pretty sure they start at 1 alphabetically with the two divisions joining at the third round, then add the teams coming in from previous rounds.

1 AFC Bournemouth
2 Arsenal
etc down to Wolves at 40-odd
Member of a clique
User avatar
Terre Harte II
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:52 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere, USA

Re: FA Cup Third Round Draw

Post by Terre Harte II »

eric olthwaite wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:16 pm
Terre Harte II wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:22 pm
Barf. What a shit draw.

Also, how do they determine the number you're assigned?
Pretty sure they start at 1 alphabetically with the two divisions joining at the third round, then add the teams coming in from previous rounds.

1 AFC Bournemouth
2 Arsenal
etc down to Wolves at 40-odd
Yeah. Looked like the replays to be played were all stacked at the bottom too.
"The supporters, the only thing to them is that they love their club.
The only thing the receive in exchange is emotions.
For this reason, the supporter is the best thing in football." - Marcelo Bielsa
Post Reply