The Championship

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Phil LUFC
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm
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Re: The Championship

Postby Phil LUFC » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:13 am

rss1969 wrote:Martin Samuel is a cunt and missing the point completely. He must have needed some column inches to fill having to drop into the lower leagues to pen some shite for ten minutes.

Derby got to the play off final with Mount, Wilson & Tomori on loan on huge fees and wages that they could not afford to pay. Morris knew that they were fucked if they did not go up that season, just as Villa knew they were fucked. Whoever lost that final were getting done on FFP.

Derby had been doing this for years culminating in them selling the ground to themselves for a ridiculous 82m to hide the loss that had built up.

Forest, Boro and ourselves had all contacted the EFL stating their dismay as to why they were not being called to account and Boro's claim goes back well over a year so this is not something new.

We had to sell Roofe, Clarke & Jansson to claw back our losses and compete within the rules, they sold no fucker. Their fans were then baiting everyone stating that Morris had us all on strings.

The Wycombe claim is totally valid imo. Morris admitted in an interview that once the EFL ordered Derby to put in new accounts with proper player amortization figures that they would be getting a points deduction off the back of those figures.

The EFL gave them a deadline of June (prior to the fixtures coming out for the next season) to put the accounts in........Derby stated they could not fulfil that deadline so the EFL gave them until beginning of August.........they missed that deadline again meaning that the season kicked off with no points deduction and Derby were in the Championship making it too late to penalise them for the season just gone.

Wycombe are stating that had Derby complied with the EFL's request, the 9 points would have been taken off them there and then meaning Wycombe would have stayed up and Derby would have been relegated.

So even after everything else, Morris held the amended accounts back for one last fiddle and then put the club into administration one month later.

The Derby fans still wont admit that the club is wrong, it is the EFL, Bro and Wycombe's fault (they even throw Leeds, Forest & Villa into the blame pot) that they are in this mess.

Fuck them, they can start in lower divisions again like others have had to.

Good summary.

It's also a massive shame we didn't win the playoffs that year so we could also watch Villa go through this.

For the final fiddle, the EFL really needed to give the deduction last season and push the onus onto Derby to prove the EFL wrong by June. The delaying tactics really shouldn't have been allowed to work in Derby's favour.

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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:16 am

Phil LUFC wrote:It's also a massive shame we didn't win the playoffs that year so we could also watch Villa go through this.

For the final fiddle, the EFL really needed to give the deduction last season and push the onus onto Derby to prove the EFL wrong by June. The delaying tactics really shouldn't have been allowed to work in Derby's favour.


Yup. And that's a point a lot of Derby fans seem unwilling to recognise - the delaying tactics were pretty much all Mel's, not Boro's or Wycombe's or the taxman's.
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Phil LUFC
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Re: The Championship

Postby Phil LUFC » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:33 am

dirty leeds wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:It's also a massive shame we didn't win the playoffs that year so we could also watch Villa go through this.

For the final fiddle, the EFL really needed to give the deduction last season and push the onus onto Derby to prove the EFL wrong by June. The delaying tactics really shouldn't have been allowed to work in Derby's favour.


Yup. And that's a point a lot of Derby fans seem unwilling to recognise - the delaying tactics were pretty much all Mel's, not Boro's or Wycombe's or the taxman's.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what Boro are contesting exactly?

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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:35 am

Phil LUFC wrote:
dirty leeds wrote:
Phil LUFC wrote:It's also a massive shame we didn't win the playoffs that year so we could also watch Villa go through this.

For the final fiddle, the EFL really needed to give the deduction last season and push the onus onto Derby to prove the EFL wrong by June. The delaying tactics really shouldn't have been allowed to work in Derby's favour.


Yup. And that's a point a lot of Derby fans seem unwilling to recognise - the delaying tactics were pretty much all Mel's, not Boro's or Wycombe's or the taxman's.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what Boro are contesting exactly?


Off the top of my head, isn't it to do with them being gazumped by Derby for a player they were on the verge of signing? When they had no right to even be in the market for any players? Must say, it was the Wycombe one that stayed in my mind.
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Proud to be Leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: The Championship

Postby Proud to be Leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:01 am

According to the mail article, Boro are saying they missed out a play off spot (by one point) to a cheating Derby County.
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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:25 am

Proud to be Leeds wrote:According to the mail article, Boro are saying they missed out a play off spot (by one point) to a cheating Derby County.



Yes, I just read that elsewhere too. The player transfer has also been mentioned. Don't think Gibson seriously wants £45m, though.
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eric olthwaite
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:14 pm
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Re: The Championship

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:30 am

rss1969 wrote:Martin Samuel is a cunt and missing the point completely. He must have needed some column inches to fill having to drop into the lower leagues to pen some shite for ten minutes.

Derby got to the play off final with Mount, Wilson & Tomori on loan on huge fees and wages that they could not afford to pay. Morris knew that they were fucked if they did not go up that season, just as Villa knew they were fucked. Whoever lost that final were getting done on FFP.

Derby had been doing this for years culminating in them selling the ground to themselves for a ridiculous 82m to hide the loss that had built up.

Forest, Boro and ourselves had all contacted the EFL stating their dismay as to why they were not being called to account and Boro's claim goes back well over a year so this is not something new.

We had to sell Roofe, Clarke & Jansson to claw back our losses and compete within the rules, they sold no fucker. Their fans were then baiting everyone stating that Morris had us all on strings.

The Wycombe claim is totally valid imo. Morris admitted in an interview that once the EFL ordered Derby to put in new accounts with proper player amortization figures that they would be getting a points deduction off the back of those figures.

The EFL gave them a deadline of June (prior to the fixtures coming out for the next season) to put the accounts in........Derby stated they could not fulfil that deadline so the EFL gave them until beginning of August.........they missed that deadline again meaning that the season kicked off with no points deduction and Derby were in the Championship making it too late to penalise them for the season just gone.

Wycombe are stating that had Derby complied with the EFL's request, the 9 points would have been taken off them there and then meaning Wycombe would have stayed up and Derby would have been relegated.

So even after everything else, Morris held the amended accounts back for one last fiddle and then put the club into administration one month later.

The Derby fans still wont admit that the club is wrong, it is the EFL, Bro and Wycombe's fault (they even throw Leeds, Forest & Villa into the blame pot) that they are in this mess.

Fuck them, they can start in lower divisions again like others have had to.


I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. I think my issue is around lawsuits, retrospective financial recompense and could’ve would’ve should’ve.

It’s a dodgy area once you get into it. What are we owed for Wes Brown?
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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:37 am

eric olthwaite wrote:I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. I think my issue is around lawsuits, retrospective financial recompense and could’ve would’ve should’ve.

It’s a dodgy area once you get into it. What are we owed for Wes Brown?


It is a dodgy area, sure, but the Wycombe one isn't about what happened on the football pitch as such - more about how Morris deliberately strung out complying with the accounts rules so it became too late for the EFL to apply the appropriate points deduction in the correct season. They shouldn't have let him get away with that. If they're to blame for anything, that's it - they went too easy on him/Derby.
Doesn't benefit Derby, either way, though: they'd have been in League 1 earlier if the EFL had nailed Morris down.
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eric olthwaite
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Re: The Championship

Postby eric olthwaite » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:46 am

By the by, but it might be better if the FL imposed provisional deductions and withdrew them if the club provided necessary evidence.
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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:54 am

Someone on Waccoe posted this today:

"Derby can chuck all of their championship points and playoff semi finals victories in the bin because they earned them all through cheating."

Heh.
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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:55 am

eric olthwaite wrote:By the by, but it might be better if the FL imposed provisional deductions and withdrew them if the club provided necessary evidence.



That would certainly have worked in Mel's case.
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Tommy
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:07 pm
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Re: The Championship

Postby Tommy » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:06 pm

Yeah, fuck em. Morris can afford to pay what they owe, so can Ashley.

I actually think it'd be better for the fans if they start a new club, they'll be back in the Championship in a few years based on the number of fans they have and it will probably be quite fun.

rss1969
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Re: The Championship

Postby rss1969 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:59 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:By the by, but it might be better if the FL imposed provisional deductions and withdrew them if the club provided necessary evidence.


Yes this certainly would have worked better.

rss1969
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Re: The Championship

Postby rss1969 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:08 pm

It’s a dodgy area once you get into it. What are we owed for Wes Brown?[/quote]

It is a dodgy area, sure, but the Wycombe one isn't about what happened on the football pitch as such - more about how Morris deliberately strung out complying with the accounts rules so it became too late for the EFL to apply the appropriate points deduction in the correct season. They shouldn't have let him get away with that. If they're to blame for anything, that's it - they went too easy on him/Derby.
Doesn't benefit Derby, either way, though: they'd have been in League 1 earlier if the EFL had nailed Morris down.[/quote]

Wycombe are saying that it does benefit Derby though because the difference in revenue between league 1 & the championship is 6-8m

With regards to Wes Brown, there is a difference between a genuine mistake (especially on the field) and deliberately misleading the governing body in order to effectively relegate a rival club.

Boro's claim is more spurious than Wycombe's one but the neither the EFL or Derby themselves can fall off their chairs in shock that Gibson has gone after them. He has been spouting that Derby have cheated the system for some time now.

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Phil LUFC
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Re: The Championship

Postby Phil LUFC » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:23 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:What are we owed for Wes Brown?

At this stage, the fairest thing to do would be to give us one of the champions league spots this season and call it even :thumbl: .

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jackos
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Re: The Championship

Postby jackos » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:11 pm

US investment company owned by a wealthy US family have submitted a formal offer to buy Derby (BBC)
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Bobbycollins
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Re: The Championship

Postby Bobbycollins » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:14 pm

eric olthwaite wrote:I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. I think my issue is around lawsuits, retrospective financial recompense and could’ve would’ve should’ve.

It’s a dodgy area once you get into it. What are we owed for Wes Brown?

I read this quickly this morning and I'm sure it read West Brom, from which I assumed the reference was to the Ray Tinkler match. My immediate reaction was to add in the Cup Winners Cup Final and the European Cup Final to the list of bent decisions to our detriment.

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Terre Harte II
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Re: The Championship

Postby Terre Harte II » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:28 pm

dirty leeds wrote:
Terre Harte II wrote:I can’t be helped to give a shit about Derby.

By that, I mean, that I don’t want them to disappear, because apart from the Lampard years, I never had anything against them, particularly, and they are a proper club with a solid legacy, if a boring recent history … and they do play in what appears to be a soulless facility.

They’ve paid the price in the point deduction, as I see it, for their cheating. I don’t get any schadenfreude, honestly, watching clubs go through the shit we did in the mid-2000s.

Some of their fans seem to have a bug up their ass about us, but so what? So do a lot of fans of middling clubs. We’re bigger and better than them, so to waste any emotion on Derby seems beneath us. We’ve got clubs in our division to save that invective for.


Yes, in football terms they have.
But in business terms? You think HMRC [and we taxpayers] should let them off the millions they owe because 'they've paid the price in point deduction'?
Fuck that.


You’re right, of course, but once you cross over into the realm of the business ramifications that aren’t directly related to the football? I’ll admit that I just don’t give a shit.

That seems simplistic, but the truth is I know Derby County as a football club. I care only about what they are as an on-field entity. I only care about their business dealings as it pertains to the integrity of the on-field product.

Once you get past that? Paying off creditors, etc.? To use your terms, I can’t be arsed.

I’m not defending them at all, they absolutely deserve to pay a price, but personally, I am not invested in whom they owe what. I can’t conjure any emotion about it.

(The Middlesbrough and Wycombe shouts do come into the realm of “on-field”, but I don’t have much sympathy for their claims.

Both, especially Wycombe, should more pissed at the EFL for their molasses-like and arbitrary jurisprudence, and anyway, I don’t like any whiff of tables being subject to legal challenges. That’s one hell of a slippery slope.

Boro’s claim, in particular, strikes me as a reach of epic proportion anyway that their Assombalonga-led, Tony Pulis-inspired bunch of big galoots that year were headed for promotion. They lost seven matches in a row in March-April. Fuck them.)


I guess what I’m really getting at is that I think its beneath us as a fanbase to spend much emotion on Derby at all. They’re not a rival. They’re not bigger than us. They’re not in close proximity.

We’ve moved on to bigger and better things. Their existence has no effect on ours at present. They (and by, “they”, I mean their fans) have paid their karmic price and then some.

To spend any schadenfreude on them, to me, is a waste of perfectly good schadenfreude. Save it for the dickheads in our own division who richly deserve it.
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The only thing the receive in exchange is emotions.
For this reason, the supporter is the best thing in football." - Marcelo Bielsa

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dirty leeds
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 pm
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:01 pm

Terre Harte II wrote:You’re right, of course, but once you cross over into the realm of the business ramifications that aren’t directly related to the football? I’ll admit that I just don’t give a shit.

That seems simplistic, but the truth is I know Derby County as a football club. I care only about what they are as an on-field entity. I only care about their business dealings as it pertains to the integrity of the on-field product.

Once you get past that? Paying off creditors, etc.? To use your terms, I can’t be arsed.

I’m not defending them at all, they absolutely deserve to pay a price, but personally, I am not invested in whom they owe what. I can’t conjure any emotion about it.

(The Middlesbrough and Wycombe shouts do come into the realm of “on-field”, but I don’t have much sympathy for their claims.

Both, especially Wycombe, should more pissed at the EFL for their molasses-like and arbitrary jurisprudence, and anyway, I don’t like any whiff of tables being subject to legal challenges. That’s one hell of a slippery slope.

Boro’s claim, in particular, strikes me as a reach of epic proportion anyway that their Assombalonga-led, Tony Pulis-inspired bunch of big galoots that year were headed for promotion. They lost seven matches in a row in March-April. Fuck them.)


I guess what I’m really getting at is that I think its beneath us as a fanbase to spend much emotion on Derby at all. They’re not a rival. They’re not bigger than us. They’re not in close proximity.

We’ve moved on to bigger and better things. Their existence has no effect on ours at present. They (and by, “they”, I mean their fans) have paid their karmic price and then some.

To spend any schadenfreude on them, to me, is a waste of perfectly good schadenfreude. Save it for the dickheads in our own division who richly deserve it.


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dirty leeds
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Re: The Championship

Postby dirty leeds » Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:04 pm

jackos wrote:US investment company owned by a wealthy US family have submitted a formal offer to buy Derby (BBC)



£28m, apparently. Plus, one assumes, HMRC and anything that comes of the Wycombe/Boro claims.
And it doesn't buy them the stadium, which Mel still owns.
A certain Andrew Umbers involved...
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